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Old 06-28-2007, 07:16 AM   #1
csell
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Default Want ESC for minimum 8s a123 / 7s Lipo.

I am a newbee and my T-rex 600 just flew its first fligth.

To get a loot of flying time I consider to bay

2 new 6s 4900-5000 mAh lipo packs

or

4 dewalt a123 packs = 5 psc 8s a123 packs + a new ESC.

I hope that five 8s a123 packs will provide more and nearly constant flying time.

But I don't think the stock align ESC can handle the voltage of 8s a123.

Can any confirm that I need a new ESC that can handle minimum 8 x 3.6 volt = 28.8 volt equal minimum 7 Lipo ( 7 x 4,2 = 29,4 volt ).

Any advice or suggestion to what ESC to try is very welcome?

I live in Europe and support for local products is better,
but I will consider baying from all over the world.

Will it be better if I get a 600XL motor insted of the 600L?

Regards Carsten
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Old 06-28-2007, 09:47 AM   #2
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If you want to go >6S you will need to change ESC and the choices are CC85HV or Jazz 55A or 80A. But if you go with CC85HV i read that it has problem with stock align motor but not for sure...
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Old 06-28-2007, 09:57 AM   #3
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Hello,
I use CC HV85 together with 600L and 10S A123. Works good so far but only running the engine at 75% throttle so it will survive til I get a NEU... :?
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Old 06-28-2007, 06:20 PM   #4
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No the stock Align ESC is very unhappy with 8S A123 - most likely due to the cell count function. Although the nominal voltage is 29.2V this falls under load to around 24V. Get a CC85 or if you want something a bit cheaper this one does nicely:

http://www.wattsuprc.com.au/product_...p?pid=EW-HV80A.

As far as the motor goes I ran a 600L motor for around 30 flights on A1238S and it seemed happy but one day it smoked out - I had a binding TT at the time so this may have contributed.
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Old 06-30-2007, 03:08 AM   #5
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Hello.

Thanks for all your answers.

I need a new ESC for sure.

Waelo and Mercuriell do you know what kind of fligth times do you got in hovering and ligth beginners flying?

And how can I compare fligth times for 10s a123 running engine at 75% with 8s a123?

Is it better to consider a 600 XL?

Regards Carsten
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Old 06-30-2007, 06:23 AM   #6
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About 5 mins flying on 8S in light flight - the A123 drop their bundle really quick - over about 20secs towards the end of the charge, so you do have to run them on a timer. They are a bit lighter than the lipos so I think running two 8S packs in parallel an attractive option - haven't tried 10S A123 yet but I think that is going to be good Of course you can charge 'em up at 4C although I find 2C better and they really don't need balancing - I ended up taking off the taps when I re-heatshrunk my 8S. They reportedly have a long life too - I'm up to about 100 cycles on my oldest pack which is still going strong.
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Old 06-30-2007, 03:17 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csell
Hello.

Thanks for all your answers.

I need a new ESC for sure.

Waelo and Mercuriell do you know what kind of fligth times do you got in hovering and ligth beginners flying?

And how can I compare fligth times for 10s a123 running engine at 75% with 8s a123?

Is it better to consider a 600 XL?

Regards Carsten
Hello neighbour :wink:,
I get around 7-8 minutes easy flying with my 10s A123 pack, preatty ok i think. Havent fly it as much as Mercuriell tho, you know we dont have that good flyingweather as they do down under...
Br Johan
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Old 07-01-2007, 12:13 AM   #8
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Hello.

Waelo has 7-8 minutes easy flying with his 10S a123 packs, I don't need more.

I am going to bay some.

Mercuriel, you haven't tried 10S A123 yet but you think that is going to be good.
I paid yesterday for 2 a123 cells I got on a ebay auction, the seller is from Australia, I don't know how many a123 packs you have and how it are asembled, but if you want to try 8s + 2s packs, I can try to get it shipped directly to you?

I just ordered it to learn more about a123 cells, but as I already now have deceided to bay some 10s a123 packs, I don't need it in the near future. If I suddently need 1 or 2 cells I will then ask you to send some to Denmark. I will send you a PM for exchanges of postal adresses.


In selecting the right ESC the best setup will be, if I just can just swap my 6S 4900 mAh FligthPower pack with a 10S a123 pack and may be select another setup in my Futaba 9CHP/FF9 transmitter. I don't know if that is possiable?


As I understand will a lower number of cells gives more current out of the ESC for the same power.

Waelo, how had you limit your setup to 75% power, and can it be done in other ways? Do any know how much power the ESC need to handle under this 75% power setup?

waelo use CC HV85 and Mercuriell use EW-HV80A I will consider both, but I found
JAZZ 55-6-18 for a good prise here in Europe.

Do you think it can handle the large output current when using the 6S Lipo?
Is it a option to consider?

Regards Carsten
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Old 07-01-2007, 08:33 AM   #9
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Hey Carsten,

A few figures to consider:

Lipo cell = 4.2V peak, 3.7V nominal, 3.6-3.2V under load
A123 cell = 3.6V peak, 3.3V nominal, 3.0-2.5V under load

6s lipo: 25.2 peak, 22.2 nominal, 21.6-19.2 under load
8s A123: 28.8 peak, 26.4 nominal, 24-20 under load
10s A123: 36 peak, 33 nominal, 30-25 under load

It seems to me that you cannot gear the heli for both 6s lipo and 10s A123 and be in a safe operating range for the ESC. Remember that most (all?) ESCs are inefficient below about 80%. Even under heavy load the 10s A123 minimum output voltage is almost 20% above the maximum for the 6s lipo. Under light load, like when spooling up, it is close to 40% higher. You could try running your ESC at low throttle on the 10s but I don't know how well it would work, you could end up cooking the ESC.

As for the Jazz I think it is too low a rating. 6s lipo @ 55A = ~1200W, 10s A123 @ 55A = ~1400W. A T600 needs 1800-2200W capacity for 3D. I think you need a 75A ESC at least to be safe from overloading/overheating.
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Old 07-01-2007, 02:11 PM   #10
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Hello.

Thanks Kgfly.

I found and read more information for both CC HV85 and EW-HV80A.

I live in Europe and a EW-HV80A + programming card must I order from Australia and I can order a CC HV85 from USA for just 20 US$ more, it is better known in Europe, so I have deceided bay a CC HV85, but what is the problem with CC HV85 and 600L uragano47812 writes about?

When I se you numbers I don't condsider to swap between LIPO and a123 anymore.

I will go for a a123 setup only. But how many a123 cells can I connect to a align stock 600L? I think that is the importent questen. Is it 7s, 8s or 10s? What can you recomend?

When I read about a123 cells in a T-rex 600 some thinks that a 2p setup must be ideal. But I can't find any having succes with it? And I am wondering why.

I don't think it can be to heavy. If I want a 7s2p or 8s2p setup I can have 10 cells ( 700g ) in the battery holder and the remaining 4 ( 280g ) or 6 ( 420g ) mounted underneath in center of gravity. The T-rex 600 can easely carry that weigth.

Can any se what the problem then is?

Regards Carsten
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Old 07-01-2007, 04:32 PM   #11
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Carsten,
I was in your situation a couple of mounth ago, wondering how many cells to go for. My choise to go 10s A123 was based on this:
*About the same flight time as my Trex450 5-8min.
*Can swap beteween 10s A123 and 8s Lipo. (Same weight, motor, pinion etc.)
*My two chargers takes 10 and 11s max.

Know people out there using 8-14s A123 and are happy with it. Not saying 10s is the best choise because I have never tried any other setup, but it works great for me
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Old 07-01-2007, 06:58 PM   #12
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Certainly 10S A123 - 8S lipo or 8SA123 - 6S lipo seem to be suitable alternative combos - I run the 8SA123 and 6S lipos on the same heli (HV85 ESC and Neu 1515/2.5D) motor. I have 10 A123 hanging around and will make up a pack maybe to try with my Neu 1515/1.5Y motor just received.

Thanks for the kind offer Carsten - I'll be in touch !
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Old 07-01-2007, 07:44 PM   #13
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Sorry, I don't know anything about CC ESC/600L problems. The specifications for the 600L don't indicate a max voltage or max rpm so it is hard to know if it is safe to use on 10s A123, my *guess* is that it would OK on 8s A123 but probably not 10s.

From what I have read, and the advice from someone I know that flies all his big eHelis on A123, for reasonable flight time and performance on a T600 you should run 10s A123. This gives you about the same pack weight and size as an 8s lipo. For wild 3D you need 12s-14s A123 but I suspect that is a long way off.

The A123 setup will give you less power than premium lipos (but still plenty for sport flying) and shorter flight time at around half the cost with half the charging time, longer battery lifetime and with greater safety and durability.
Code:
Comparison of TRex600 LiPo and A123
===================================

                   Align 6s 4400 18c   FP 6s 5000 EVO 25   FP 8s 3700 EVO 25   A123 8s         A123 10s
                   -----------------   -----------------   -----------------   -------------    ----------
Price (USD$)       ~$210               $310                $330                ~$120            ~$150
Dimensions (mm)    110 x 53 x 73mm     166 x 44 x 54mm     150 x 46 x 56mm     108 x 54 x 67    135 x 54 x 67
Weight (g)         738                 799                 752                 ~600             ~750
Nom. V             22.2                22.2                29.6                26.4             33.0
Loaded V           22-18               22-18               29-24               24-19            30-24
Capacity (mAh)     4400                5000                3700                2300             2300
Load rating (C)    18/22/25            25/35/50            25/35/50            16/33/50         16/33/50
Usable current (A) 59/73/83            94/131/188          69/97/139           37/76/115        37/76/115
Loaded V           3.5/3.2/3.0         3.5/3.2/3.0         3.5/3.2/3.0         2.8/2.5/2.3      2.8/2.5/2.3
Usable power (W)   1200/1400/1500      2000/2500/3400      1900/2500/3300      800/1500/2100    1000/1900/2600
Usable energy (J)  74                  84                  83                  46               58
                   -----------------   -----------------   -----------------   ----------       ----------


Notes:
1) Loaded voltage estimated from published discharge curves

2) Usable energy indicates runtime. Assumes max 80% discharge for lipo, max 90% discharge for A123

3) Usable current/power is based on keeping pack temperatures below 140F/60C to ensure maximum
   pack lifetime (>100 cycles for lipo, >500 cycles for A123). For LiPo this typically means
   staying below 75% of rated current. For A123 lab tests show that it means sticking to a
   rating of 16/33/50C. If you are happy with only ~100 cycles from the A123 packs then you can
   push them somewhat harder than the estimates indicate.
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Old 07-01-2007, 08:11 PM   #14
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Fascinating info Ken Pretty much fits in with my personal experience - the 600L motor is certainly livelier on 8SA123 than ALign 4400 6S but can't compare with the power available from the EVO 25 6S packs.
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Old 07-01-2007, 08:57 PM   #15
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Good to have all the fluffy theory validated by someone with real experience, thanks John I updated the table above to show the Align 6s 4400 18c for comparison and fixed some errors in some of the numbers as well.
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Previous rides: HX242, W5-4, TRex450(HDE), TRex450(SE), QJ-EP8v2, BCX2 ,Logo10, Hurricane550
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Old 07-02-2007, 02:31 AM   #16
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Hello.

I plan to order a CC HV85 in a few days and had already emailed with suplyers of 10s a123 packs. But how manny to order?

I don't know if you use Fahrenheit or Celsius in Australia ( 140F = 60C )
or if you use to let the a123 packs cool down after fligth before recharging?

I have already 2 schulze chargers and 1 in the post ( max 13s a123 and max 5.5A
up to 26V and 3.7A at 34V ) calculating with 25-37 min charging time.

If a have packs called A, B, C and D I am considering:
Start flying with A,
Next let A cool down and fly with B.
Then begin charging A, let B coll down, fly with C.
Then Continue charging A, begin charging B, let C coll down, fly with D.

With cool down the optimal will be 5 packs and if not 4 is pack enough?

But do you use to let it cool down?


10S A123 - 8S lipo or 8S A123 - 6S lipo seem to be suitable alternative acording to Mercuriell. For the moment I don't plan to bay any 8S lipo, but what PINION GEAR can you recomend for 10s a123 and for 8s a123? I like to order it now so I will receive it around to same time as I receive the ESC and a123 packs?

Is Align PINION GEAR OK, or what else to bay?


You have all been very helpfull, so I will like to ask for your opinion:

Do you think that I shall bay 2 6s lipos for a little more than 600 US$ total.

Or bay 4-5 a123 packs and a CC HV85 for around the same money?

Regards Carsten
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Old 07-02-2007, 03:00 AM   #17
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Carsten,

CC HV85 seems a good choice.

We use Celsius in Australia. The general rule is to always let the battery packs cool before charging. However others may have useful real-world experience that we can learn from.

With three chargers and five packs you can fly all day with a few rests here and there! I don't think my nerves could take it

Charging a 10s A123 pack at 3.5A will require about 160W input power to the charger. If you have three chargers all going at once you will need a 500W DC power supply.

"suppliers of 10s a123 packs" - What does that mean ? Generally you buy A123 cells by bidding for DeWalt 36V cordless power tool battery packs on eBay which you then disassemble for the ten A123 cells inside and make into flight packs. The DeWalt packs sell for about USD$90-120 on eBay. There are a couple of vendors selling pre-made flight packs but they charge almost as much as for lipos so you don't get the dollar savings.

If it was me I would go 10s A123 for sure. However, if you are not comfortable with the idea of making up your own packs then maybe lipo is a better solution for you ? Really only you can decide. To me, 4 safe, durable, long lasting flight packs and an ESC would be a much better deal than 2 high performance but dangerous and fragile lipos. However, I don't quite get the arithmetic unless you are getting a sensational deal on the gear. The CCHV85 is about $180 and the A123 packs at least $120 each so for $600 that would be CCHV85 + 3 x 10sA123 at best. Still a great deal compared to 2 lipos
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Old 07-02-2007, 03:12 AM   #18
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Brilliant Kenneth - thank you

I have been looking so closely at this as most of my flying with the 600 now includes 835grams of camera/downlink gear. As the current useage is relatively low (gentle climbs, no aeros), I can use cheaper lipos although I just treated myself to a TP5000 for de-stressing flights.
I have aquired some unused 4400 6S Align packs from the lhs that no one would buy (with good reason) and Align wouldn't let him return... but they are great for 20-30 AP flights before they get tossed... for zero $$$ (well, a few favours for the lhs but no $$$).

As I'm all already carrying extra payload, lipos are still my best choice if I want flights of 7-8 minutes.
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Old 07-02-2007, 03:40 AM   #19
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Pete you might want to consider the AirThunder 6s5000 packs as they tolerate deep discharge without damage which could give you extra safety margin for your AP flights.
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* MSH Protos Stock motor/15t/Align75/Align DS510/GL730+DS520/7s A123 2300
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Previous rides: HX242, W5-4, TRex450(HDE), TRex450(SE), QJ-EP8v2, BCX2 ,Logo10, Hurricane550
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Old 07-02-2007, 03:51 AM   #20
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I haven't priced them yet to NZ BUT they are on the top of the list at the moment... The 4400's I now have (with my TP5000, HP4350, UH4100) should keep the camera ticking for a month or two.
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