Next victim, Blade 400

[megawhacker]

Well, I'm 14 months into the hobby with 1000+ flights on the mCPx having taken the baby steps...mcx2, SR120, mCPx.....and I think there's a good chance I'll maiden the Blade 400 this week that I purchased on helifreak in October or November 2011. This will be my first flight with a "real" "toy" helicopter. Just kidding....I know we fly "hobby" grade-and that they are not toys. Anyway, will be my first flight with a fly barred CP and first of anything over 3.6 ounces and first that can do serious damage.

I picked the B400 of the 4 not yet flown helicopters in my signature because I figured to fly em in order of cheapest to most expensive and because I figure it is easier to work my way up in quality rather than down....and the very nice set up main blades that comes with the B450X retails for $46.00 to replace. At $46.00 they can sit on the shelf for a while longer.

I had forgotten that my used B400 came with stock servos, but it did and that's what I'm using. I soldered, setup, and installed the HK Blue series 30 amp (40 amp peak) ESC and the Hobby King 401B gyro. I'm about two days into this (with many interruptions) and here's what I've learned so far.

I'm using the intermediate downloaded B450 settings in my DX8. First thing I noticed is blade less head spinning in throttle hold. Well it is because the B450 calls for 10% throttle in TH and the B450 calls for zero. I have no idea why the difference. Why would it not be zero for both? I guess I can cover that hurdle when I move on to the B450 3D.

I noticed early on that my pitch slider is not as smooth as I would like it. I've taken it apart, lubed it, put it back together. The actual part that slides seems smooth. The mechanism that moves it seems smooth. But put em together and not as good as I'd like. Now, fully assembled with servo and gyro attached and powered up the servo seems to have no issue with it, everything seems to work smoothly, still....I guess maybe a 100 dollar project is not going to work as smooth as, for example, a 2000 dollar project?

I also noticed that my DS75 did not seem to like my HK401B settings. O.K., I thought digital gyro, digital settings on gyro. I pulled out the B400 manual and noticed the warning on using digital gyro settings with the DS75 which is digital in name only? Sort of a castrated digital? Anyway, went with the recommended analog settings and all seems happy. Now, when I say that I'm 2 days into this you have to understand that 2 hours was cheap entertainment-with all electronics connected and sitting on table-rotate gyro left, watch helicopter rotate, turn gyro right, watch mechanism work and helicopter rotate....I was thinking a B400 without blades is pretty safe, but I gotta say that tail looks dangerous also and one would not want to be in the arc if it malfunctioned, went to full power and whipped around. And pretty embarrassing for the first dumb thumb event to happen dumb thumbing a gyro sitting on the table. So, now for rest of setup my motor is disconnected from the ESC.

Well, my orange receiver is just too wide to fit where the the stock receiver was and I mounted it sideways with the wires to the right. I must have spent two hours of zip tie, and decide was not right and zip tie again. Now, it is a mess but the wires are zip tied out of the way of any moving parts and everything is plugged in correct and functions. I'm wondering if there is such a thing as a receiver mount that goes behind the helicopter for the B400? Of, course, the easy way would be to just open my NIB 6115e and use that....but I'm doing this the hard way. But I'm sure people use orange receivers and do it with much more finesse than I have so far.

I think I'm good through the first two SOCAL head setup videos and moving on to the top of the head today. Decisions, decisions. Use the Align 325 or Stealth brand blades that came with the B400, use my wooden ones from China, use the stock B450 wooden blades (1615?), or rob the 450X of a $46.00 set-o.k., that last option won't happen. I'm thinking either wooden blades from china or Align 325 Pro blades.

Another decision-training gear or not. My overconfident self figures I have skill to be inverted within first 30 seconds and do not need training gear. My more rational self thinks training gear and going slow could really save a lot of money and time.

Oh, and that canopy. I played with that thing for an hour yesterday. I gave up on getting in on over the 2200 mah Nano. I took out the 1800 stock eflite and noticed it was the same size or within millimeters of thickness of the Nano. I weighed em and it is 159 grams stock and 173 grams Nano. I also put much more velcro on the Nano than came on the stock and the Nano has much thicker and longer wires both power leads and balancing leads. I found I could just wedge it on with the battery 1/16th inch from the motor which seems close except the velcro really holds it in place solid and it does not move. I also noticed previous owner put a set of holes further back on the canopy which could be used, but I'm not sure the bottom would be far enough back to be secured with the aft holes. Solution? Steal the B450 canopy?

Well, that's what I did with my B400. I've learned more about helicopters with that thing on the table for two days than with flying the mCPx for a year.

Oh, and no buy better servos or better gyros or throw away the HK ESC or orange receiver advice please. I've been on this thread for a year now and I'll replace what I cannot live with or does not work or move on to a nicer Blade helicopter. This is my "cheap" build. My just figuring out how things work build. Yes, yes, I know it is easier with better electronics.

Wish me luck.

[Stormbringer]

im using 2200 mah overlanders in my 400 with the stock canopy and it fits fine and good luck

[Luvmyhelis]

Skip the gangly dangerous training gear. If you are grass flying add the 500/550 skid mod that works better and doesn't mess up the handling. It also gets another inch under your tail blades to save them in off angle landings. Sounds like you made up your mind on the rest of it... so good luck!

[bundydeity]

yeah i agree with luvmyhelis - i used training gear for my b400 and the little knobs at the end of the balls kept getting caught in the grass at the park - a few times i would crash because of this - the heli would kinda tip to one side if i tried to lift off resulting in a blade strike and replacing the main shaft and feathering shaft - very annoying!
im sure theres a mod you can do to fix it though stop it getting caught

[FireDoug]

+1 for no training gear

I have Align 500 gear on my B400 & Trex450Pro and would recommend it highly. Great for confident landings on grass especially taller grass, but also really helps with visual reference of birds roll position. It is much easier for me to visualize a bird that is slightly rolled as it flies by with the bigger landing gear.

Doug

[megawhacker]

I did the maiden flight last night-sort of. Do all parts have to simultaneously get more than 1 mm off the ground to count as a maiden flight? I guess run up with intent to hover is more accurate.

I had it level on my little door mat helipad out in the middle of the grass. I brought the power up a little and all controls seemed to work and I had rudder control. A little more power and the tail began wagging like a happy Labrador. I should have stopped right there. I made various adjustments and it seemed to improve until it was smooth right up to mid stick and seemed light on skids before violent wag started again on each attempt.

So, I called it a day and happy with no blade strikes or damage. I googled HK401B tail wag and read how these gyros seem to be hit or miss and various solutions. i re-read the HK401B manual. I had initially interpreted mounting it perpendicular to mean perpendicular to the flat side that the mounting tape goes on. On re-reading I decided it might mean something else and cut the mounting tape off and rotated the gyro 90 degrees and remounted. It will be nice if the fix is so easy. I'm not holding my breath.

Windy and rainy today. Six days at work starting Sunday. I think I'll give the HK401B gyro about another week and then consider some combination of the 3 more tail servos and 2 more gyros I've got sitting around. I've got a fully assembled B4503D stock in the box ready to fly except for inspection, loctite, and setup. It would seem pretty silly to start pulling pieces off of it to try on the B400 when I might just as well go maiden the B450 if I don't get there on the B400. I'm still at least several weeks or one major crash away from giving up on the B400.

And thank you for the Trex 500 landing gear recommendation. I'm heading to eBay right now.

[bundydeity]

well im no expert but from what ive read the HK401B gyro is junk. you get what you pay for! this could possibly be part of your problem i'd consider getting another gyro. you can buy the spartan quark off hk store which is a little more expensive but not as much as a GY520. read good reviews of the quark

[megawhacker]

No mas. I'm beaten. I lower my head in shame.

I got the tail wag down to where I could get the B400 6 inches off the grass and dared give it no more power for fear of the HK401B going totally bonkers. It drifted about 15 feet with the wind and impacted some 10 inch high weeds and I did TH and watched it roll over and feared the worst. Got lucky, a bent feathering shaft and two stripped servos.

Well, no gears for the E-flite servos, so looked at HXT900 servos and they are different, sanded for an hour and gave up on fitting the HXT900 servos in, and put in some cheap but good rated orange HK digital servos and got the tail to hold with HK401B in rate mode only and changed to Assan 250 and I think both my HK410B and Assan 250 are defective and finally I just boxed it up.

I think I put 20 hours into that thing this week. I've learned more about setting up a helicopter than I've learned in a year with the mCPx. I will be married 25 years in 3 more weeks and I knew the marriage was not going to make it to 25 years unless I boxed up the B400 and cleared the dining room table of helicopter parts. I have a lot of patience but I think my wife thinks I'm way past any reasonable effort of getting it to work and I should box it up, put it on eBay, and move on.

Six days at work coming up so I'll be cold turkey on helicopters for a week. I'm thinking the B400 could be a good "sacrificial" sale to keep the marriage. See, honey. I got rid of one. I'm beginning to see the wisdom of higher quality components and helicopters.

The victim becomes the victor. B400 gets last laugh. Time to get reacquainted with the mCPx.

[xpftp]

tail wag many things... belt tight ? tail shaft bent? main bent? .. gyro sittin on top of the boom flat with the little switchs and knobs facing to the sky . try diff double sided tape or shoe glue some use ..

get rid of the orange rx and get a spectrum .. get rid of the 450 setup and use a 400 setup in your radio ..

HK stuff is hit or miss as was said in other posters post .. but i also found this . even with a better gyro sometimes the servo n gyro are like married will devorced couples lol it works togther or doesnt .. even in digi or analog mode . i got a align digi givin to me by LHS and my gyro the dryum gyro holds good ..

but if i put a diff servo on tail it dont like the gyro .

so many things to try before sayin bad about a gyro .. but it is true sometimes there good sometimes there not ..

dont give up .. i think the 400 is a great steppping stone to learn on .. cheap priced parts for rebuilds and more forgiving then say other helis ..

[Dazhim]

If u haven't already don't give up.. we've all been there.. use b400 set-up. take your time. and b4 you know it the b400 will be fine. I enjoyed your read. was kinda humorous.. But we've all been there. Heck my first b400 flight was less then 10 sec. lol into a tree.as for the gyro Check the for sale forum.. I saw a spartan on sale for 55 bux today.. cant beat that.. and it was some hitec servos today too.. saw a 9257 tail servo for 35 bux... I wish you luck and dont give up..

[megawhacker]

Posting from my phone. I get home tomorrow. I think I will fly the mCPx while reflecting on the b400. If I get all smooth in rate mode would there be anything wrong with a noob flying in rate mode?

Ty for comments and always glad to entertain.

[FireDoug]

I too have enjoyed following your journey, that is the nice thing about HeliFreak, people get your story.... You tell this tale to non-heli friends or your wife and they have no idea and just think your nuts.

So i am newbie too and I have learned a ton here, great bunch of liked minded freaks. I like so many others got temped by the lure of cheap electronics, which have caused me more headaches then I care to share. And cost me more in the process too!

X-heli's house brand Dynam/Detrum is the same nightmare as your HobbyKing parts. I had ESC, go up in smoke, a motor bearings fry, their 401 clone gyro has killed 3 tail servos for me on an EXI 450 pro. I have learned my lesson too... I am completely rebuilding the 450 with genuine Align electronics, there maybe better stuff but I know the Align motor, ESC, gyro, servos are going to work with this heli.

But what keeps me coming back is how awesome of a feeling I get by flying.... each new successful step has been a major high... Going from complete lack of any control to flying FFF circuits, stall turns, high speed coordinated banked turns in 4 months has been something I could never imagined doing back in January. I now see that some beginner 3D is not unrealistic expectation.

I bought a Blade 400 off another Helifreak member, because I just wanted to fly and I was spending too much time with the Trex out of service and I could not progress without a working 450 heli. I too have a mCPx but the Blade 400 has been an outstanding learning tool and it is fun as hell too.

The Blade 400 is like a Toyota Corolla, may not be the fastest coolest car out there but it just runs, can't be put down, and operating cost are very fair. My Trex 450 is more locked and flies more precise than the B400, but the B400 has at least 100 flights on it with not a single hiccup. My B400 simple flies... put fresh battery in heli fly smile... repeat.... repeat..

There are a lot of good used helis and good quality heli parts in the forums, guys are always moving up and sell off the smaller stuff. Good stuff to be recycled and money to be saved.

Take a look for a Futaba Gy401 and a set of Hitech 65mgs servos on the forum and go through the rebuild when you get back from your break. Your mind will be reset and so will your wife's patience. I have this setup on my B400 with a stock DS75h servo and it flies like a champ. Tail holds great zero drift.

Another option might be to just buy a new B450 and enjoy that simple solution. If you can fly a mCpx you will be able to fly a properly setup 450 size heli. With out a reasonably well setup heli even the experts will struggle. Your story might be completely different if the heli would have been flying properly.

A very well written book that helped me out a geat deal and is very well priced is available online for a few bucks, check it out, it is really geared to the B400.

http://www.rchelicopterfun.com/rc-helicopter-tips.html


Put it away for a week and rethink it all next week.

Best of Luck on your decision!
Doug

[bundydeity]

Originally Posted by megawhacker

No mas. I'm beaten. I lower my head in shame.

I think I put 20 hours into that thing this week. I've learned more about setting up a helicopter than I've learned in a year with the mCPx. I will be married 25 years in 3 more weeks and I knew the marriage was not going to make it to 25 years unless I boxed up the B400 and cleared the dining room table of helicopter parts. I have a lot of patience but I think my wife thinks I'm way past any reasonable effort of getting it to work and I should box it up, put it on eBay, and move on.

Six days at work coming up so I'll be cold turkey on helicopters for a week. I'm thinking the B400 could be a good "sacrificial" sale to keep the marriage. See, honey. I got rid of one. I'm beginning to see the wisdom of higher quality components and helicopters.

The victim becomes the victor. B400 gets last laugh. Time to get reacquainted with the mCPx.

dont give up! i went through that stage myself which is why my b400 sat in the cupboard for such a long time. i ALMOST gave up on helis altogether, thought they were too hard.
for me the mcpx has changed all that. to me it felt similar to flying the b400 and i crashed it just as often to begin with. i could barely hold it nose in without crashing, just like with the b400
the difference was i didnt have to spend an hour or so going over the heli fixing damage etc (this can really make it seem impossible when your learning), trying to problem solve such things as tail wag etc with very little knowledge of how the heli actually works.

fast forward a bit, im pretty confident on the mcpx can fly in all orientations, still no inverted, but that gave me the confidence to pull out the b400, get a new gyro and tail servo, rip the training gear off and finally fly it.

i flew almost 4 batteries before i crashed it (admittedly i was very cautious, no where as confident as on mcpx) and am in the process of fixing it to try again.

if i did give up i would not be having the fun im having now - i love the mcpx - and my b400 has gone through a steady upgrade process - now ive got all hitec metal gear servos, gy520, futaba brushless tail servo, looking at upgrading the frame and all gear to blue aluminum.
im glad i never gave up, hopefully you wont either. maybe put the b400 away for a bit, practice on the mcpx, then re-visit the b400 - which stock leaves a lot to be desired, but spend a bit of time and money on it you will have an awesome beginner/intermediate helicopter.
and in my personal opinion steer away from the cheaper parts they may end up costing you more in the long run!

[bundydeity]

Originally Posted by FireDoug

Another option might be to just buy a new B450 and enjoy that simple solution. If you can fly a mCpx you will be able to fly a properly setup 450 size heli. With out a reasonably well setup heli even the experts will struggle. Your story might be completely different if the heli would have been flying properly.

Doug

wouldnt buying a b450 be a setback? ive heard the stock servos and gyro are only a little better then b400, but not by much. after a few flights he could be back in the same boat - stripping servos, problematic gyro, modifying to upgrade and all the headaches that go with it

personally, and this is my opinion, would be better off to stick with the b400, buy better servos and gyro and use that as a stepping stone to go from mcpx to b400 to something of much higher quality.
when im confident on the b400 im considering the logo as my next heli

[Luvmyhelis]

Originally Posted by bundydeity

wouldnt buying a b450 be a setback? ive heard the stock servos and gyro are only a little better then b400, but not by much. after a few flights he could be back in the same boat - stripping servos, problematic gyro, modifying to upgrade and all the headaches that go with it

personally, and this is my opinion, would be better off to stick with the b400, buy better servos and gyro and use that as a stepping stone to go from mcpx to b400 to something of much higher quality.
when im confident on the b400 im considering the logo as my next heli

I agree! If nothing else the B400 should outfly the B450 if you compare cash out. This leaves lots of room for much better servos, head, tail, gears and whatever. The next heli should be another built fbl 450 if you like the size or something larger. I like having two radically built 450s rtf in the stable at all times. This way I always have at least one flying (well, at least I hope).

[megawhacker]

Originally Posted by bundydeity

wouldnt buying a b450 be a setback? ive heard the stock servos and gyro are only a little better then b400, but not by much. after a few flights he could be back in the same boat - stripping servos, problematic gyro, modifying to upgrade and all the headaches that go with it

personally, and this is my opinion, would be better off to stick with the b400, buy better servos and gyro and use that as a stepping stone to go from mcpx to b400 to something of much higher quality.
when im confident on the b400 im considering the logo as my next heli

I will give a little history of my larger than micro heli purchases and point out my signature line...

October 2011: Purchased HK250GT kit and parts over next 2 months. Still sits new in box except some of the parts now on the B400.

November 2011: Purchased the B400 that is subject of this thread. Purchased used B400 minus tail servo, gyro, and esc and plus "$120.00" of spare parts for $120.00 shipped. Buy the spares at retail price and get the B400 for free. Or I could think of it as paying $60.00 for parts and $60.00 for a B400(-).

December 2011: Purchased used B450 previously crashed and repaired to undamaged condition and with maybe one or two extra parts for $165.00 shipped. This seems to be a go through and check everything, loctite, do setup, and go fly. Still sits in box unflown.

April 2012: Purchased new in box B450X LHS $399.00 Still sits new in box. Purchased mQX and mCPx #3 at about the same time from LHS. I think my LHS likes me now. I am very happy with the improvements of the V2 mCPx over my previous two V1 mCPx's. I went up and jammed the sticks on the V2 in an attempt to get tail blow out and the tail held. Both my V1 versions have to be caught like a falling egg to prevent tail blow out.

Pilot skill wise i think I'm more than enough experienced to take the jump from mCPx to B400/B450. I crashed the B400 because I lacked the self-discipline after infinite attempts to get setup correctly (tail) to not just add a little more power and I certainly had good luck in the crash, but I also had a year of learning how to crash going in my favor. Crashing from six inches seemed a better option than getting a helicopter 6 or 10 feet in the air that should not have been in the air.

Context of "giving up" is in to put more time into the B400 or move on to the 100% stock B450.

I'm learning that perhaps when one buys (larger CP) Blade helicopters perhaps one should buy new unless one is very experienced or is buying for replacement parts. By the time I could buy everything for the B400 that you guys recommend I'd have more money into the B400 than into my brand new B450X. Heck, with esc, tail servo, gyro, some spares (got booms, feathering shafts, and a new tail belt last night on way home) I'm already way past the price of my used B450.

In favor or used helicopters I did buy both my V1 mCPx's used and it was a very economical and positive experience.

[intro]

Throw in the gyro (I used a DetrumGY48V...no problems) and servo's (DS76, DS76T) used in the 450 3D.

+1 on the overbuilt landing gear. Training gear ceases to be a help once you leave the pavement. In long grass, it's suicide.

[megawhacker]

This is a 3 page update of this week's B400 progress condensed into emoticons.




Anyone figured it out yet? Hint is in my signature line.

The quickest among you have figured it out. Rest of you need another hint?

I own BOTH a DX6i and DX8 with the DX8 being a more recent purchase.

I think most of you have figured out something that guaranteed failure for me the past 3 weeks with the B400......but if not.....here are some more hints.....

For setting up a gyro that requires toggling between HH and Rate mode it ain't never going to work when you are toggling between different values within HH.....and those settings I was using pretty much guaranteed the helicopter would try to self-destruct from violent tail wag.

So, I googled my problem....and sure enough in 2010 others were learning what I learned a few minutes ago.

http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=246933

I don't know if it is good or bad that I figured this out before stomping the B400 and my "cheap" gyros into a pile of unrecognizable parts. The decision was made. The B400 was out of my life forever. Now I realize it was not the B400. Well, the B400 is not off the hook yet, but at least THAT issue was not related to it being a B400.

[Stormbringer]

glad you have it figured out now tho

[megawhacker]

Originally Posted by Stormbringer

glad you have it figured out now tho

I have ONE issue figured out. I hope there are not 10 more issues that each take me three weeks to figure out.