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Old 06-02-2012, 01:01 AM   #1
bravedave
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Default Protos 500 crash - not happy, need help diagnosing problem..

Need some advice on my latest 'disaster'.

Protos 500 with Orange Rx, Dualsky 60A ESC, stock motor and stock 15T pinion. 5S Turinigy 30C w 100% flat IU throttle curve. Approx +12 -12 straight pitch curve.

Prior to crash heli behaving as normal.
Practising inverted, and started to 'lose it' at fairly low altitude. Rapidly flipped upright at same time banging sudden full up collective. As full pitch occurred squealing noise followed by rapid mid air main blade stoppage, (I could actually see individual blades while the heli fell to the ground. The image is burned in my brain. Blades were hardly spinning as it hit, as evidenced by the fact they are fine with hardly a scratch on them. Crashed on gravel !
Took me about 5 seconds (!!) after crash to hit TH. No chicken dance from heli, just the squeal that continued until I hit TH.

Damage is all the usual, boom, flybar, + servo frames etc etc.

I am not a 3D flyer so I rarely if ever hit full pitch. If I did it wouldnt be as sudden as my emergency response today. Which point in the drive train failed? No doubt that the sudden full pitch put a part under unusually high (for my flying style) strain and it gave. Not the belt, it is fine.
Protos 500 has a one way bearing in the motor pinion. I regularly put a drop of oil on top of that as part of my preflight lube regime. Could that be the problem? Over-oiling and the one way losing grip under sudden strain and not turning the pinion - causing loss of power to the blades?

Another possible contributing factor is my inability to get the soft start working on my ESC. WIth no soft start when I slowly increase throttle there is a shock though the drive train as the motor kicks in and rips the blades suddenly through the first few turns. Could this have stuffed the one way bearing in the pinion over time? (When I first set the heli up I spent 2 hours going through the Tx to ESC programming over and over again, and was sure I was doing the right thing, all the beeps were correct and made sense, but no soft start enabled when I spooled up. Gave up and accepted the less than elegant 'shock start', which Ive been doing for two months now.)

At this point my motor pinion is my main suspect in the crash investigation. If it is that, it's hard to identify failure as it will work under low smoothly applied loads but only fail under sudden strain which is hard to replicate on the bench. Failure caused by oiling or shocks applied by hard starts?
Any thoughts appreciated, especially regarding the one way bearing.
D
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Old 06-02-2012, 01:17 AM   #2
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...i'm not too familiar with the Protos drive train, but a loud squeal is a very good indicator of a bearing going bad...
I know on my Gauis if the OWB takes too many shock starts, it is soon toast with a broken internal cage and roller falling out...along with the squeal...Get that soft start fixed as soon as you can!
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Old 06-02-2012, 08:35 AM   #3
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Your OWB failed. Did you oil it? If so, stop! OWB are pre oiled and should not need any more oil. if you wan to oil he bearings, take them out of the pinion to oil them. If you need to oil the OWB, just a drop of TriFlow wil do it. To much an they slip under heavy load


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Old 06-02-2012, 05:29 PM   #4
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Hmmm... looks like oil in the one way bearing was the culprit. I'd have thought that if oil in the wrong place was the problem any oil on the gripping surfaces would be a problem. Good idea to oil the bearings separately.
Oh well, back to the workbench for more hours of rebuilding....
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Old 06-02-2012, 05:37 PM   #5
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The OWB just needs a slight bit of oil. Like a teeny drop if it was dry. Should barely be a film on the shaft. I allwAys wipe my shaft free of oil when I remove pinions. I've never personally oiled a OWB because the oil they come with usually lasts it's lifetime. Unless you got it gritty and had to clean it


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Old 06-02-2012, 08:10 PM   #6
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I've routinely grease one-way bearings on my 600+ helis but never the Protos. The Protos one-way gets neither grease nor oil, ever.
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Old 06-02-2012, 09:51 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banditpowdercoat View Post
Your OWB failed. Did you oil it? If so, stop! OWB are pre oiled and should not need any more oil. if you wan to oil he bearings, take them out of the pinion to oil them. If you need to oil the OWB, just a drop of TriFlow wil do it. To much an they slip under heavy load


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+1
Typical Protos OWB failure. Never oil the OWB on the Protos, it is small and subjected to huge loads. It will slip if oiled or greased even a little.
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Old 06-02-2012, 10:52 PM   #8
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I’ve done the same on my protos. Stretched, 900kv motor, and 65C thunder power pack so plenty of torque… Luckily for me it was the bearing adapter that was chewed up and not the motor shaft. So just a simple fix for the actual failure but had to replace blades and some other parts after the crash…
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Old 06-03-2012, 07:21 AM   #9
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Thanks for the help guys. I live 'n learn!
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Old 08-08-2012, 12:04 AM   #10
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Even if the OWB is brand new with no oil added it (WILL FAIL). This problem destroyed my protos 500.. Got a used one from a friend last week, and didn't touch the OWB, and it failed to, but no crash. OWB failed on my original protos three times. Replaced all components including the motor shaft, and still failed. I'm working on a permanent fix at the moment that locks the pinion to the motor extension shaft. The fix gets rid of the OWB completely.
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Old 08-08-2012, 12:38 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e3dflyer View Post
Even if the OWB is brand new with no oil added it (WILL FAIL). This problem destroyed my protos 500.. Got a used one from a friend last week, and didn't touch the OWB, and it failed to, but no crash. OWB failed on my original protos three times. Replaced all components including the motor shaft, and still failed. I'm working on a permanent fix at the moment that locks the pinion to the motor extension shaft. The fix gets rid of the OWB completely.
You sure there isnt something else wrong with your setup? or are you just running very high headspeeds?

The one-way does wear out, but for most it seems to take 100-150 (or more) flights.

Personally I think they should do a main gear with the OWB in there, you would have no tail in an auto (like a Logo400) but then they could use a decent sized OWB for those that seem to destroy them so much.
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Old 08-08-2012, 06:24 AM   #12
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I don't know what your setup is like but my owb's have several 100's of flights on them.

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Old 08-08-2012, 07:56 AM   #13
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I would. NOt remove the OWB. There there for a reason. You will regret it


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Old 08-08-2012, 01:37 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e3dflyer View Post
Even if the OWB is brand new with no oil added it (WILL FAIL). This problem destroyed my protos 500.. Got a used one from a friend last week, and didn't touch the OWB, and it failed to, but no crash. OWB failed on my original protos three times. Replaced all components including the motor shaft, and still failed. I'm working on a permanent fix at the moment that locks the pinion to the motor extension shaft. The fix gets rid of the OWB completely.
Quite apart from losing the ability to auto your bird safely, removing the OWB has the potential to fry your motor and ESC. In a steep descent, your rotor will overspin the motor creating a huge surge of current at high-voltage, which will feed back directly into the ESC potentially cooking all the FETS and all other electrical systems connected to the ESC (Rx, servos, gyro). Literally
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Old 08-12-2012, 05:53 AM   #15
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The OWB has been locked with Loctite brand metal epoxy, and is holding perfectly under extreme loads. Hammering on the Protos 500 will destroy the OWB, it's a proven fact. The OWB is the exact same OWB used in the T-Rex 450. Maximum rated torque for the OWB is1.3 (ft-lbs) at room temp. Protos 500 motor torque is 0.30 (ft-lbs) at 13A (hover) according an online helicopter calculator. Bearing temp was around 160 degrees after a hover flight.
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Old 08-12-2012, 05:58 AM   #16
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Thanks for all the feedback! I think DesertStalker has the ultimate solution to put the
OWB in the main gear. That way it wouldn't be affected by the motor temps.
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Old 08-12-2012, 10:20 AM   #17
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Your the first person ive seen to lock the OWB. Lots of people hammer on Protos no worries. Ever seen Tareq fly it?
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Old 08-12-2012, 10:13 PM   #18
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I know E3Dflyer and have watched him hammer several different machines. He flies extremely hard/violent 3D (and very well). He is an excellent pilot and I have trusted him to fly my front line machines.

He has gone through several autorotation clutches and actually blows them in flight. He has tried with and without lubrication.

On the same machine, I have also seen Jason Chow have one start to break loose (you could hear is squeak in flight).

As for this statement:

"removing the OWB has the potential to fry your motor and ESC. In a steep descent, your rotor will overspin the motor creating a huge surge of current at high-voltage, which will feed back directly into the ESC potentially cooking all the FETS and all other electrical systems connected to the ESC"

This is completely incorrect.

If this were true then everyone who has ever had an auto clutch lock up in flight would have blown their ESC (my Trex 600E locked up about every third flight until I washed the grease out of the overrunning clutch and replaced it with light oil).

Also, every Blade 300X in existence would have a fried ESC, including mine (there is no overrunning clutch in a Blade 300X).
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Old 08-12-2012, 11:42 PM   #19
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Thanks for all this good info on the OWB. I guess the takehome message is to replace the OWB at the first sign of trouble. I didnt and it cost me.
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Old 08-13-2012, 12:06 AM   #20
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You can clearly hear the noise the of the slipping OWB in Jason Chow's video. The Protos 500 fly's the best out of all the 500 class helicopters I have flown to date, so it was worth the trouble to lock it!

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