Rolls way tighter than flips

[bad007]

Forward and back flips aren't tight like rolls. My velocity will roll on the spot, flips wont.
Turned on control loop optimize. Rolls will stop fast, flips will over shoot and are hard to stop.
Style set at 50, agility at 100, gain at 80.

[MrMel]

Check CoG first, that's usually what makes Flips not good.

[bad007]

All ya, COG is good, set it with the tank a bit over half full by installing a bigger RX pack. Was tail heavy at first.
I'm starting to miss the 3GX with separate flip and roll rates, separate elev and ail limits and gains. It would flip in a phone booth before. But all in all aileron rolls are super tight.

[mickeyjohnston]

Style at 50 seems a little low, though some people like it there. Have you tried your sytle at 70 to see if that helps?

[MrMel]

You can always tweak roll vs fliprate with DR in the radio, if you want, nothing you cannot do that you could on 3GX

However, there is a reason is my guess, for sample a spread out weight compared to under the mast etc might affect.
Also check that you have enough throw (cyclic ring)

You can also manually raise Optimizer = faster.

[satgod]

I set my travel limits in my radio to max and then use bank switching to controll the speed of the movement and add expo in vbar as needed
travel limits need to be set before you do the setup
when you do the setup right after the receiver init section it will show you your channel throws you really want 99-100% on all
I set all mine to 100%
then with bank switching I can controll how fast my cyclics are at all times
its like dual rates but in vbar
the higher your agility the faster it will respond
if you have pro on your vbar click on the blue hat optimize your control loop and I always set my paddle sim to 0 you can turn it up and get that flybarred feel
put it around 50-60 it might help your rates but at 0 and using agility is what I do

[4cyclic]

increasing cyclic ring will help quite a bit on flip rate.

[bad007]

Originally Posted by mickeyjohnston

Style at 50 seems a little low, though some people like it there. Have you tried your sytle at 70 to see if that helps?

To tell ya the truth changing the style doesn't seems to do much. Doesn't lower increase cyclic reaction?

Originally Posted by MrMel

You can always tweak roll vs fliprate with DR in the radio, if you want, nothing you cannot do that you could on 3GX

However, there is a reason is my guess, for sample a spread out weight compared to under the mast etc might affect.
Also check that you have enough throw (cyclic ring)

You can also manually raise Optimizer = faster.

DRs,? I thought the TX was calibrated so there was 100 for all travels. I'd have to set DRs 110 or more for the evelvator then the feel would change The overall elev cyclic responce feels ok but flips aren't as tight as they used to be. For the cyclic ring on the bench I'm getting 15 cyclic so it should flip on a dime but doesn't. I don't understand the optimizer, separate flip and roll rates? The optimizer raised the flip rate 5 points and the didn't change the aileron.
The 3GX 2.0+ control rates determined how fast the cyclic responds and the limits set how tight the flips and rolls where without chaning the cyclic feel but had those settings for both aileron and elevator. The vbar is burning me out trying to get want, it was so simple before. Lots of bells and wistles and no real progress getting what I want where as before a few flights and it was dialed in. Heck the 3GX even handled the wind better. I guess I just don't get the vbar . My velocity used to be the first I'd grab now it's the last.
I watched all of mels vids. Someone needs to explain what everything does before I give up on the vbar.

[shein95]

you set the radio up in the software at 100 then use the dr to drop the travel to tame things. i have never gone over 100 on the cyclic but have on the rudder and 105-110 on the rudder dr gave faster piros than 100.

[bad007]

Originally Posted by shein95

you set the radio up in the software at 100 then use the dr to drop the travel to tame things. i have never gone over 100 on the cyclic but have on the rudder and 105-110 on the rudder dr gave faster piros than 100.

Wow tame things! LOL coming from a 3GX to a vbar , vbar is allready way to tame. One of my earlier post was how to wake up the cyclic. Settings don't seem to do much compaired to the 3GX mild to wild with no effort and ele and aile have separate settings. I go out with my 3GX and do forward, backward flips and rolls, land adjust both and recheck and no problem getting what you want. I need to find out how to adjust flip and roll rates separate. Mel said to raise the optimizer myself but haven't had time yet to try. The optimizer raise the elev 5 point and no change aile.

[shein95]

the set up in the radio section is just so the vbar knows what full stick is at. sounds like you just arent getting full mechanical throw so along with mr mels solutions upping the dr to over 100 should give more travel.

[rchelijc]

Or if you're game, manually input 150 in agility.

Didi that on my Srmok 90E and she flips like a tossed pancake on the spot in the air with no time to react on collective. Did 2-3 flips even before she started to descend, and I didn't even touch collective. Brought it back to 110-120 bank-switched.

But, if this doesn't happen for you, then you know for certain that your travels have been limited, either by one or more of the following:
1. Mechanical - too little gain
2. Cyclic ring (usually set this up to tell VBAR where binding starts only, and not set cyclic limits - VBAR does that based on Agility)
3. Dual rates
4. Servos - not enough torque

[bad007]

Originally Posted by rchelijc

Or if you're game, manually input 150 in agility.

Didi that on my Srmok 90E and she flips like a tossed pancake on the spot in the air with no time to react on collective. Did 2-3 flips even before she started to descend, and I didn't even touch collective. Brought it back to 110-120 bank-switched.

But, if this doesn't happen for you, then you know for certain that your travels have been limited, either by one or more of the following:
1. Mechanical - too little gain
2. Cyclic ring (usually set this up to tell VBAR where binding starts only, and not set cyclic limits - VBAR does that based on Agility)
3. Dual rates
4. Servos - not enough torque

Running DS610s@ 6.75v CC Bec Pro and feeding it with 10 gauge wire, 3500 30c battery pack
Upped agility more, like you said rolls are spot on and take next to no neg compensation. Back and forward flips loose. So raise agility more and use DRs for aile? Running Mavrikks wide chords just under 2200 55HZ-R. Log doesn't show gov being maxed at any time. Maybe bump gov gain comp for cyclic?

[rchelijc]

Originally Posted by bad007

Running DS610s@ 6.75v CC Bec Pro and feeding it with 10 gauge wire, 3500 30c battery pack
Upped agility more, like you said rolls are spot on and take next to no neg compensation. Back and forward flips loose. So raise agility more and use DRs for aile? Running Mavrikks wide chords just under 2200 55HZ-R. Log doesn't show gov being maxed at any time. Maybe bump gov gain comp for cyclic?

2 things spring to mind..
1. Get a friend to time you with a stop watch doing 10 rolls stick pegged at max aileron. Then time 10 flips. If both take around the same time, then you're likely just visually biased to rolls over flips. However, point 2...
2. What you're describing might be a CG thing. It's quite rare to be that far off CG to te left or right, but more often either front or back. The excess 'baggage' to the front or back can cause the heli to seem to slow down visually at certain passes during flips. Also, the off CG may cause a slight 'bump' when you terminate the flip since the cyclic FBL has the take back control and compensate for the tendency to nose up or down.

I see this when I'm running badly CG'ed FBL, eg when canopy off during testing.

[bad007]

Originally Posted by rchelijc

2 things spring to mind..
1. Get a friend to time you with a stop watch doing 10 rolls stick pegged at max aileron. Then time 10 flips. If both take around the same time, then you're likely just visually biased to rolls over flips. However, point 2...
2. What you're describing might be a CG thing. It's quite rare to be that far off CG to te left or right, but more often either front or back. The excess 'baggage' to the front or back can cause the heli to seem to slow down visually at certain passes during flips. Also, the off CG may cause a slight 'bump' when you terminate the flip since the cyclic FBL has the take back control and compensate for the tendency to nose up or down.

I see this when I'm running badly CG'ed FBL, eg when canopy off during testing.

COG is spot on.
You don't need a stop watch, aileron rolls are super fast and spot on. It's probabaly 3 rolls to 2 flips if timed. Flips aren't tight at all like before and should be. On thing, when setting cyclic pitch it only sets it for aileron. I'm going to check the max cyclic on the bench for both and see if aileron has more and go from there. I don't get just setting aileron. Maybe play with the increasing the cyclic ring and DRs on the aileron.

[4cyclic]

Increase cyclic ring to 80-85. That should increade flip rate.

[bad007]

Coming from 3GX to vbar, What about this. Since rolls are so tight, during cyclic setup set DRs for aileron to 90 when setting the 8deg. That should tighen up the flips right?

[bad007]

Went back threw setup, everything is dead nuts on, the cyclic ring allready had the swash tight up against the main shaft providing 14.5 cyclic for aileron and elevator @ 83
So head speed? Wider blades not helping? Running Mavrikks wide chords, maybe narrower is better, all my other hellis are running Radix. I think I can sense rpm drop on back and forward flips so bump the gov precomp for cyclic maybe? I know the flips whoud be tigher. Lower the head to get the mass closer to the disc? Main grip rods are 61mm I think and would need to be 51 to go down to the next hole on the velocity head.

[BakedMopar]

Did you try and up the optimizer for elevator?

[bad007]

Originally Posted by BakedMopar

Did you try and up the optimizer for elevator?

Didn't get out this weekend, The optimizer states it is usually around half the agility and there both at 50 now. Where gong to tach it and make sure my target head speed is there and then bump the elev optimizer and cyclic gain for the gov, I think I hear the head speed drop a tad and that sure wont help. I was wondering it the Radix V2 625s would be better then the Mavrikks? Maybe the wider blades are like a wide blade on a band saw vers a narrower blade that cuts tighter turns?