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Old 07-11-2012, 09:57 PM   #21
Stolla
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveGahan View Post
Hi !

I have to say that I got a bit more confused with the last posts but there was also a lot of good information with great value for me and it made it much clearer at the same time!
Thanks, guys !

I allways thought that a Scorpion motor is a fine product and that it would be woth the 240 Euro I had to pay here in Germany for it. I started with the whole thing 6 months ago so my knowledge about the design of brushless motors for example is limited. My Protos 500 (180 flights now) is powered by one (stock 3026-880kv) and I saw that a lot of pilots use Scorpion motors in a wide range of helis from 450 to 700 class. That's why I wanted to go for the 4035 even if I've learned that they come in VERY hot in the summer. Sometimes I think my P500 gets on fire...

I didn't think about using an Align motor in the 7HV - but why not ? They copy the Compass products so they should be very compatibel to each other !
Not, just a joke. That seems to be another fine option! Is it pretty equal to the Scorpion motors when it comes to quality? That would be great because it's much cheaper !
What are the pros of the Pyros over the Scorpions and Aligns?

Up to now I see the following scenarios which are all under 2000 Euro:

1) "Best bang for the buck" :
- Fusion Hawk 120A, Align MX750, Hercules Super BEC, vBar -> ca. 1750 Euro

2) "Get in touch with vBar and JIVE" :
- JIVE 120 HV, Align MX750, vBar -> ca. 1950 Euro

3) "Fall in love with overpriced Kontronik" :
- JIVE 120 HV, Pyro 700-52, AR7200BX -> ca, 1950 Euro

4) "Special ltd. borderline edition" :
- JIVE 120 HV, Align MX750, AR7200BX -> 1800-1850 Euro

INFO: All with Savx SC 1258 TG / Futaba BLS 251 / ??? Blades for ca. 100 Euro

Now that I've written this and thought about it in depth I hope there will be the phase where one find the best solution very, very soon...

What do you think about exactly these 4 combos ?

THANKS to you all

Greetings,
Oliver
Option one or three imhop.
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Old 07-23-2012, 10:22 AM   #22
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Hey, friends !

Sorry, that there was no news since the last couple of weeks.

I decided to give myself a some more time to think about the whole project again. It was important to me to find out if I really, really wanted to go for a 700 size bird.

As we all know these helis are indeed members of another class. They are much more expensive than my Protos 500 for example but on the other side I think it's also kind of a "special feeling" when you fly one of these. They are great in every aspect.

I tried to find a 600 size heli and was not far away from buying a T-Rex 600 Pro but at the end it Wasn't exactly what I'm looking for. It's better to see in the air, it handles better
in the winds but you are forced to run it with high RPM values. There are workarounds but
I don't like these restrictions, especially if I can not understand them...
Then there is the technical design. There is soo less room soit can be hard to use another motor than the 650MX. Maybe you need to use expensive tuning part etc.
When it comes to the other 600 models there was allways something I didn't like...

No, I realized that I would not be lucky with such a bird, so I decided to go definitely with the 7HV ! :-)

I still don't know, which motor I should choose... As you will perhaps remember, I have to pay attention to the weight aspect (max 5kg). Which would be the most powerful setup (motor + LIPOs) which I could use without geting a too heavy bird ? I will definitely use Turnigy or GensACE batteries. From the range of GensACE there are only the 4500 25C I would efford. If I will need to go with a higher capacity there will ony be the Turnigy...

There are very different meanings about the Pyro 700-52. They are all satisfied with the quality but a not small crowd of guys says that it's not very powerful... Would the performance fit my needs (just starting with 3D now BUT love the higher RPM blade sound...)?

There is a store in Germany which modifies the Align MX 750 to get more quality/power. Could I run a modified one together with the JIVE 120HV without using the KSA mode? Which winding should I choose?

Which Quantum would be fine?

It's just the motor to be choosen. I think I will be lucky if this process has found an end. Maybe at the same time I will miss the time of selecting components etc.... :-)

Greetings,
Oliver
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Old 07-23-2012, 12:39 PM   #23
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ok first thing pyro is powerful enough, in your case, first 700 size you won't be disappointed, its way stronger than mx 700 or 750 , a properly rewinded mx single wire in yy configuration will have more power but you always have the issue with mag spacing, for instance I had one which would mess with my jive even in rewinded config. Imop you can't go wrong with pyro will easily handle 2200 on 15 t. Just read Robs excellent write up in the 7hv forum. Some Earlier pyro's had problems with under specced stator plates (low number) now solved
Jive 120 no problem can handle anything to a 4535 scorpion with ease.quantum 4530 nice motor, runs cool good power but multistrand d winding,esc's do much better with yy wind so for power setup I'd say you're better off with 4525 ultimate, runs very hot though in the 70-80 cel range. I say go for pyro and jive 120 later you can have the pyro rewinded and have 4525 performance at much lower temps.
Lipo please not turnigy, gace has a good reputation so far. For the record I have quantum,pyro,mx, scorpion all rewinded in yy , the pyro and quantum my favourites due to cool running properties. I don't want to suggest quantum as I don't like multistrand, nor d winding but its good quality although some issue with mag spacing as well, though doesn't seem to affect esc as much as mx
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Old 07-23-2012, 01:34 PM   #24
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I am really enjoying my Pyro powered 7hv with HeliJive , Outrage hv servos Skookum 720 FBL, etc

I think most that say Pyro isn't powerful just read the specs and don't own one. It doesn't have the max power of all but if you feed it properly it will make the 7hv look good.
I have several 550 size and 2 600 heli's but the 700 really puts a smile on my face and I am just getting comfortable with it.
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Old 07-23-2012, 02:35 PM   #25
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You can get a hobbywing for $115 from hobbyking and a wr Hercules for $100 so thats $215 for a really good esc and bec. I use that combo.
I just put a quantum 4530-500 in mine and its really good.
For servos on a budget use aligns they are good.


If you want a 600 instead look at the 6hv I like it even more then the 7
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Old 07-23-2012, 04:39 PM   #26
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Hey !

First of all, you guys are really a great support to me! Thanks!

@Stolla :
The way you help me again and again through this process by supplying a lot of information and sharing your experiences is really nice! Thank you!

Great that you and Jamesppp commit my suggestion that it should fit my needs. As written before I'm still nothing more than a beginner doing his first steps into 3D...
I know that a guy of the compass team flies the Pyro in his 7HV in combination with a JIVE and he can fly really, really well. Ok he's not as good as me, he needs still some practice. Maybe there will be a moment he wishes to have a better motor. Somewhere in the future when he gets better...

Back to reality... I'm pretty sure now that I will go this way. During the next couple days the sallery will find the way to the bank account of the little slave and then I will order what I need. It will be the following combination. I'm pretty sure... for 98%... :

PYRO 700-52L, JIVE 120HV, AR7200BX, Savx 1258, Futaba BLS 251

But, why shouldn't I go with Turnigy? I use them (2450mAh 30C) in my Protos 500 and I'm satisfied with them. After 50 cycles I feel that they started to get a bit puffy now, but they were really cheap. Next time I will go for some GensAce which are not much more expensive...
The problem is, that the bigger GensAce LIPO's are WAY MORE expensive than the Turnigy's! I know about the differences when it comes to the quality and performance but I really can not efford to buys 4 LIPO's for 480 Euro (5000 mAh)! The 4500mAh would be ok (82 Euro each) but everything above this capacity is a nightmare where as the Turnigy cost about 70 Euro !

What do you think will the 4500mAh 25C GensAce be enough for this heli or would I need to go bigger (Turnigy) ?

@lazor 22 :
Thanks for your suggestions! When I started to think about possible combos for the 7HV there was the idea of going for a Fusion Hawk 120 in combination with a vBar. Nevertheless the idea of having a high quality power system without an external bec and phase sensor was too nice for me to be changed against the "cheaper" combo. I know that the Fusion is a very nice system. You can talk to soo many people and they all seem to be happy with it. That's unbelievable but true. So don't get me wrong, please...

A few weeks ago I tried absolutely everything to enjoy the look of the 6hv. The idea of saving a few hundred Euro, using cheaper (smaller) LIPOs sounded soo nice BUT there was/is no way for me! Every time I see a picture or video of the 6HV I feel a bit sad. I ask myself, why the heck did they design it (optical appearance) like this? It's length fits my imaginations of a 600 size heli but the width and height of the frame... There would be too less advantages for me. I want to get a heli with a bigger appearance and not 2 pairs of rotor blades puted accross in a 90 deg angle. The whole frame/body is soo slim and flat...
sorry, don't get me wrong. I don't like it and tried it again and again... I know there are a lot of guys enjoying this bird. It seems to be very fast and maneuverable but the design...

Greetings,
Oliver
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Old 07-23-2012, 05:10 PM   #27
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Fair enough, seems like thats the biggest complaint with the 6hv. Personally I would love the 7hv much more if it was like a bigger 6hv
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Old 07-23-2012, 05:50 PM   #28
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I run gens ace 3800 and 5300. The 3800 work fine at lower rpm. About 1800. 4:45 flights. 5300 for really thrashing!!!! Ingot them for $90 ea on sale.

I also run the pyro. Have a 4525 ult to try also.
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Old 07-23-2012, 06:04 PM   #29
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Get the HeliJive ESC instead of the PowerJive
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Old 07-23-2012, 06:14 PM   #30
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I think you will have a lot of fun flying with your setup. The Pyro is a very powerful motor until you think you want to run very high headspeed - above 2200. It runs cool as Stolla and JamesPPP said previously. There are more options for lipos than anything. You can buy them last. I am certainly not regretting my Gens Ace purchase. For a lighter setup, and lower headspeeds, a lighter pack such as Spyder 12S4000 is also reputable. But honestly, I cannot feel the ligher weight compared to the Gens Ace like I thought I would. The JLog ability on the Jive is yet another selling point for Kontronik in my opinion. If you think you would find it useful to analyze what your power system is doing, there is no better data logger. If I were building a second 7HV, I'd try to get some of the highest performance batteries available, such as Thunder Power. They will very possibly outlast the time you will own the heli and be useful in your next big heli. Jive, Pyro both have very good resale if you might decide to sell them at a later date. I do not regret my Jive, Pyro, or Gens Ace selections at all. From experience thus far, I think my Pyro could deliver even more power if fed very strong batteries. For now, though, the Gen Ace work well, and were no more expensive in my case since the shipping on HobbyKing can add up. I had a Turnigy pack which arrived with a dead cell the last time I ordered from HK and found it was too costly to return. HK will replace the pack, but the cost was too much to return it. Not a huge deal, and I had some very good flying with the Turnigy batteries, but it was not on a 700. This is a very hot debate. I am not yet flying quite hard enough to warrant the big power motors like Stolla is flying, but I also know he enjoyed the "art" of the rewind. I have kept my 700MX for just such a winter season project. Finally, if you choose to run the BeastX or AR7200BX, consider locking in on the Jive if you want to fly on the governor. Castle also has a pretty good governor as many can attest. Stolla's rewound motors seem to do great on his Hawk Pro ESC. I don't recall hearing mentioned that it has the advantage over the HobbyWing with the addition of forced air cooling. Just some more thoughts to consider. Your options may cost very differently purchasing within Europe versus the USA.
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Old 07-23-2012, 06:53 PM   #31
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I am running Pyro/HeliJive on one of my 7Hv's and am absolutely happy with the power.
Have been running Reaktor(GensAce) 4000 30C's and get 5min at 1950HS and Sky Lipo 5000 30C 6min.

I think 4500 would be the ideal compromise for low weight and decent flight times.

HP has some on sale now, have a look
http://www.hobbypartz.com/98p-35c-4400-6s1p-6666.html
http://www.hobbypartz.com/77p-sl4400-6s1p-30c-6666.html

50 flights out of a set of Turnigy's isn't saving you any money.
I have 75+ flights on my GA's now and they are strong as new with IR ranging 0-1mOhm.

On another note I traded a pair of Local store brand 6S5000 35C with a buddy for a pair of Voltz 6S 4200 35C. Bad idea, puffed the Voltz on 3rd flight.
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Old 07-23-2012, 11:53 PM   #32
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i agree, on size, I use tp4400 , won't go smaller, zippy ,turnigy,voltz all don't perform well past the 50 flights mark when you start loosing performance, I would have tried gace myself but locally not that much cheaper than tp and 21 day warrantee vs 2 years and crash replacement so not worthwhile for me
Someone mentioned,helijive, yes off course when you talk helis you talk helijive sometimes I forget there's a normal (powerjive)
Lastly a good big one will always beat a good small one, you're making the right decision going for the 7
setup sounds great, are those savox the same as the align 610's, if so there's nothing wrong with them but the bls 451 brushless servos are only slightly more expensive and draws only half the current so would be my first choice
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Old 07-24-2012, 08:14 AM   #33
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Gimpy,
Thanks, I just ordered a pair of the Gens Ace 4500 35c to try.
$70 each delivered. I have never tried them but for that price it is worth a shot and a lot of guys like them
Just got to hope they are not defective because I have read for several years that hobby partz/nitro planes/x heli has non exist any customer service

I may pick up a Hobby Wing ESC as they work well with the sweet gov on the Skookum 720 and 540's that I use. I like my my Kontronik controllers but on the 7hv Jive I'm not even using the BEC feature on my HV setups.
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Old 07-24-2012, 08:39 AM   #34
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Searched for the Fusion Hawk 120A in the states and could not find a vendor. Any leads on a place to buy stateside?
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Old 07-24-2012, 09:39 AM   #35
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Quote:
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Searched for the Fusion Hawk 120A in the states and could not find a vendor. Any leads on a place to buy stateside?

Here they are labeled and marketed by OS Engines.
They call it a 100A but for all I've read it's the same 120 as Fusion Hawk/Robbe Roxy/Mega Power

Here's the Speedo
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXBYTY&P=7
and the Programer
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXBYTX&P=7

Futaba will also be rebadging these but not yet available here.
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Old 07-24-2012, 01:11 PM   #36
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Where's the cooling fan?
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Old 07-24-2012, 01:25 PM   #37
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Not sure why the fan has been left out.
Maybe the extra 20A rating went with it.
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Old 07-24-2012, 01:28 PM   #38
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Personally I'm not a fan of Fans anyway.
A well planed out power setup shouldn't rely on mechanical cooling. Cut some canopy vents if needed.
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Old 07-24-2012, 01:38 PM   #39
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Looks like the Mega Power one comes with the fan built in. Much cheaper than the OS one too. I found it available from Alien RC but I have never dealt with them before. http://www.alien-rc.com/oscommerce/c...roducts_id=864

might be a cached link...
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Old 07-24-2012, 02:31 PM   #40
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Hey !

Sorry, that I interrupt your (very interesting !) talk about the Fusion...

Your responses show me, that I'm on the right way and being close to the end of this never ending selection process. That gives me hope, that I can fly the big brother of my P500 very soon...

@Jamesppp:

You recommend the Heli JIVE instead the Power JIVE. Can you give some more information, please? Is there any special reason for it? I'm not really into the details when it comes to the JIVEs. Maybe you will know that I've just started in the beginning of this year...
I think it has the so called Bail Out feature ? But it would cost another 30 Euro + the prog disc to use this feature (?).

@Rob43:

Thanks for your detailed support !
I will definitely go for the jLog because it has some very nice features and I think it will help me to get a picture of what's going on in the power system. Maybe I will wait a month but I will get one !

@Jamesppp, @Rob43 and others:

It's interesting to see which LIPOs you recommend and I think you guys have very good reasons for it. Some of you seem to be really experienced and I know that it would be "intelligent" to follow your advices but there is a little problem...
Most of the batteries you have listed in your posts are much more expensive here in Germany as in the USA (for example).

Let me give you some examples :

GensAce 4500 25C 83 Euro or 100 USD
GensAce 4400 35C 122 Euro or 145 USD
GensAce 5000 45C 130 Euro or 157 USD

And when we talk about Thunder Power than it means let's talk about the death:

TP G6 ProLite 4400 25C 136 Euro or 165 USD
TP G4 ProPower 3850 30C/60C 144 Euro or 175 USD

TP ProPower 4400 45C/90C 220 Euro or 266 USD

Maybe you will understand, why I like the idea of getting some Turnigy's. Yes, I know about the disadvantages, but have a look at the prices... It's terrible. The 2 years of warranty and the crash replacement TP offers to it's customers is really nice but at this price ?!?!

BUT I've found a nice special deal: TP ProPower 4400 45C/90C for 149 Euro or 180 USD

I think, I will give the GensAce 4500 25C a try.... But will they fit the needs of the PYRO 700-52 or would it be better to go for 5000 30C Turnigy's ? I think they are overrated so let's calc with 25C. Due to their higher capacity they should supply a bit more power...?

Don't get me wrong, please. I havn't had a detailed look at the prices you have to pay, my friends. So maybe there are not that great gaps between the markets...

Greetings,
Oliver
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