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3D Forum Discussions for 3D applications using CSM Cyclock, Helitronix Multi-mixer, Spartan AP2000i, Firmtronix Digimix-3.


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Old 10-07-2007, 09:50 AM   #1
fly4fun299999
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Default My flybarless TRex600

Hi freaks,

yesterday I had my first 3 succesful test flights with my flybarless TRex600. It felt quite different while flying, very twichy around the middle stick and sort of delayed too. I use Cyclock, 2 CSM 720 gyros and Fut. 9255 servos on swash.
I sure have to adjust the params but don't know exactly how. Maybe somebody can help me.

Thanks and regards
Laszlo
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Old 10-07-2007, 10:30 AM   #2
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Can you post your 720 settings and how you're mounting the 2 gyros?
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Old 10-07-2007, 10:43 AM   #3
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Beautiful Laszlo!
I wish I could help, but not many people have done it yet. So I'm anxiously awaiting other responses. I would really like to do it also.
Did you need anything special besides the cyclock and 2 gyros?
Can any 2 gyros be used, or are they part of the cyclock?
Lots of questions here.
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Old 10-07-2007, 10:49 AM   #4
fly4fun299999
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Default My flybarless TRex600

Hi Kevin,

my 720 settings are (see pics):

I took those params originally from trextuning.com

I mounted the gyros as so.

Thanks for helping!
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Old 10-07-2007, 11:32 AM   #5
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I don't have my computer cable with me at the moment to get my settings...

Here's how I mount mine.

I've notice that it's not as twitchy if I use leading edge control than if it were trailing edge control.

Also, when I added the copper plates, it eliminated a LOT of noise I've been getting from my gears/bearings/motor. (I also ground the plate to the 0V of my gyro). I also switch from using servo tape and use the thick spongy tape that comes with the gyro. This help out a lot also.
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Old 10-07-2007, 11:42 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skeppley View Post
Beautiful Laszlo!
I wish I could help, but not many people have done it yet. So I'm anxiously awaiting other responses. I would really like to do it also.
Did you need anything special besides the cyclock and 2 gyros?
Can any 2 gyros be used, or are they part of the cyclock?
Lots of questions here.
Gyro that has separate rate gain and heading lock gain works best with flybarless setup. The only gyro that has this features that I know of at the moment is the CSM720.
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Last edited by fireup; 10-07-2007 at 11:12 PM..
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Old 10-07-2007, 11:48 AM   #7
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Default My flybarless TRex600

Thank you Kevin! I will try using leading edge control and using the spongy tape first to tame it. Also I will mount a copper plate. Anyways I'd be happy if you could post your settings some time.

Thanks Skeppley! As far as I know with the Cyclock1 you need 2 CSM 720 gyros. I don't know whether other gyros would work.
Of course you have to strip the head, but else it's all standard Align parts you can use (swashplate driver).

Regards Laszlo
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Old 10-08-2007, 09:52 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fly4fun View Post
Of course you have to strip the head, but else it's all standard Align parts you can use (swashplate driver).
Very cool 4fun. Could you post a couple of more photos of the head from different angles. My brain is having trouble figuring out what you have done. Also, do you have a link to the Trex600 forum for this work? I'm a "Freak" to the core but I'm always interested in learning more.

Thanks for the post! Also, thank in advance to FireUp for sharing your programming setup!!
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Old 10-08-2007, 10:06 AM   #9
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Thanks cbdane!
No problem, I will take some more detailled pictures of the head this evening. I was taking some basics and ideas and the software setup from www.trextuning.com/csm-flybarless.php.
There's another one: www.p0.se/trex600
Else I was 'googleing' for other flybarless infos on different sites. Over at RR they just opened a new forum especially for flybarless systems. Maybe you can find some more infos there.

Until later
Laszlo
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Old 10-08-2007, 11:41 AM   #10
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For cbdane and all others who are interessed, here some more detailled pictures of my TRex600 head. Sorry for the bad quality of the pics, it's a cheap digicam.

What I don't like, is the fact, that the blade screws are now upside down. I flipped the blade holders as Kevin suggested. Either I have to find longer screws to mount them correctly or maybe Kevin can send me the beautiful head and blade holders he made himself. LOL

The other fact is the linkage between the swash and blade holders is not exactly vertical. I'm thinking of delta effect. Does it matter?

If you need more infos let me know.

Laszlo
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Old 10-08-2007, 07:54 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fly4fun View Post
What I don't like, is the fact, that the blade screws are now upside down. I flipped the blade holders as Kevin suggested.
Thanks for the photos!! I personally don't think that "nutz up" looks too bad.

Quote:
The other fact is the linkage between the swash and blade holders is not exactly vertical. I'm thinking of delta effect. Does it matter?
Most every flybarless setup I've seen have the control rods sloping out to the grips. As long as the control balls on the swash are at 90 degrees to the feathering shaft, you shouldn't have phasing problems. Does the Cyclock allow you to adjust the phase angle so it could be used on multi-blade heads?
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Old 10-09-2007, 03:38 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbdane View Post
Thanks for the photos!! I personally don't think that "nutz up" looks too bad.
It's not only the look, but I hope the screw doesn't come lose or even fall off in flight.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cbdane View Post
Most every flybarless setup I've seen have the control rods sloping out to the grips. As long as the control balls on the swash are at 90 degrees to the feathering shaft, you shouldn't have phasing problems. Does the Cyclock allow you to adjust the phase angle so it could be used on multi-blade heads?
OK, I understand. The control balls are 90 deg. to the feathering shaft.
Yes, you can adjust the phase angle in Cyclock.
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Old 10-09-2007, 10:14 AM   #13
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Quote:
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It's not only the look, but I hope the screw doesn't come lose or even fall off in flight.
The way these heli's fly, I suspect that gravity has little to do with holding the screws in!
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Old 10-09-2007, 11:53 AM   #14
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Quote:
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The way these heli's fly, I suspect that gravity has little to do with holding the screws in!
Yeah, you're right cbdane, gravity has little to do! But you haven't seen me flying, mostly inverted, so the screw is OK upside down -
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Old 11-20-2007, 02:41 PM   #15
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Whats the cost of a CSM flybarless setup?
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Old 01-20-2008, 04:53 AM   #16
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Default csm system

G-day all just wondering will this system work on 600N?
Or are vibrations an issue?

Cheers
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Old 01-25-2008, 01:52 AM   #17
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I think the V-Stabi is a great system for someone going flybarless on a new heli, however the CSM system is an excellent option for those who already have a good flying heli and want to go flybarless, because we usually already have a good tail gyro.

I just installed the CSM system on my 10s T-Rex 600 and I can't say enough good things about it! It has awesome collective and cyclic response and incredible stability at the same time. And the heli has a completely different sound to it. It's much, much quieter even in hard 3D maneuvers. My flying buddy was there and saw mine on the initial flights and ended up buying the same setup for his T-Rex just a couple days later. He's just as happy and amazed with his.

We both got our CSM parts from www.amainhobbies.com. The whole system including the two SL720 gyros, Cyclock and USB programming cable is about $500. I'm sure it would work great on a nitro bird as well. Take a look at the 2007 3D Masters and you'll see a couple of the top pilots, Curtis Youngblood and Duncan Osbourn, were flying flybarless nitro heli's.

I say definitely the way of the future... and the present for me... I'm not going back!
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Old 06-10-2008, 12:43 PM   #18
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Hi.

I like your flybarless. Im starting to think of this for my V2. Already seen one at a Fun Fly, but didn't manage to talk to the guy. I have some questions for your design.

1. Why did you have to flip the blades? From the Linkage point of view, the thing is a bit angled with the same ammount in any case. Was it for the pitch? Beacause it's not passing through the mixer arm?

2. The Washout Base
a) Why is it upside down?
b) Why is it fixed to the Main Shaft?
c) Uhm..WHY IS IT THERE?? Mainly you have linkage straight to the blades from the swash. The rest is useless...or is it?

Looking forward for your reply

Thanks.
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Old 06-10-2008, 10:17 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fly4fun View Post
The other fact is the linkage between the swash and blade holders is not exactly vertical. I'm thinking of delta effect. Does it matter?

Laszlo
Yes this will take your head out of phase. This can be compensated for in software (at least is the v-stabi it can) however is not ideal. Vertical is ideal. The less compensation you have to do in software the better it will fly.

You can get spacers (as seen in the mikado vbar section at rcflightstore.com) that sapces your balls out to be in line with the mainshaft. You need to use the balls that can have a screw go through them and use a long screw though. That would make your head in phase and likely perform better.

You can see this in application here on the aftermarket head. The spacing is the same with the stock metal and stock plastic grips. (I would not recommend the stock plastic grips due to flex).
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Old 06-11-2008, 03:37 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by av.emil View Post
Hi.

I like your flybarless. Im starting to think of this for my V2. Already seen one at a Fun Fly, but didn't manage to talk to the guy. I have some questions for your design.

1. Why did you have to flip the blades? From the Linkage point of view, the thing is a bit angled with the same ammount in any case. Was it for the pitch? Beacause it's not passing through the mixer arm?

2. The Washout Base
a) Why is it upside down?
b) Why is it fixed to the Main Shaft?
c) Uhm..WHY IS IT THERE?? Mainly you have linkage straight to the blades from the swash. The rest is useless...or is it?

Looking forward for your reply

Thanks.
Hi Mike,

I flipped the blade holders due to the delta effect. Better response, less pitching up in FF.
As Dynamic explains, the linkages from swash to blade holder should be exactly parallel
to the main shaft. The Mikado upgrade set is a possible solution, but I don't like the plastic stuff.
I recently bought the new Align blade holders, where I can mount longer Vario balls to eliminate
the delta effect.

The washout base has to be fixed to the main shaft to function as a swash driver.
Why is is upside down? Don't know, just adapted it from another setup I saw without
thinking about it.
Anyways, I'm going to change this to the mikado swash driver.

Last but not least, I swapped the Cyclock and the CSM gyros for an AC-3X system.

Regards
Laszlo
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