Fun, Learning, Friendship and Mutual Respect
START  HERE


Unregistered
Go Back   HeliFreak > R/C Helicopter Support > 450 Class Electric Helicopters


450 Class Electric Helicopters 450 Class Electric Helicopters manufactured by Align, Tarot, SYMA, Airhog, Chaos, HK and similar.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-14-2007, 10:35 AM   #1
xptical
Registered Users
 
Posts: 3,003
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Robins AFB, Georgia
Default Motor Comparison

I'm looking at getting a Scorpion motor for my Diablo.

I currently have the Align 430XL in the bird. I'm thinking about the Scorpion HK2221-8.

Can someone tell me if the Scorpion is better?
__________________
She felt like someone of an ambiguous age that even neilg would approve of...
xptical is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2007, 10:47 AM   #2
Funky
Registered Users
 
Posts: 4,513
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Westerville, OH - USA
Default

They are very similar. I liked the Scorpion a little better because its slightly more efficient and seems to bog a little less, but the difference is pretty small. If you purposely bog the motor the difference is easier to see, but if you just fly like normal, it was pretty hard to tell much of a difference in the air. Both of them are great motors.
__________________
More helis than brains
Funky is online now        Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2007, 10:50 AM   #3
kraaijer
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,031
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Belgium
Default

Maybe have a look at the 2221-6... More power and higher KV
__________________
Goblin 630, Vibe 50, trex 500, 450, mcpx v2 and mcpx bl. All fbl of course...:-)
kraaijer is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2007, 11:16 AM   #4
HeliSmith
Registered Users
 
Posts: 9,887
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Chico, California
Default

Someone mentioned something about 3 or 4 minutes on the Scorpion motor. Is this true? That's a short flight...
__________________
Field Rep for
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
HeliSmith is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2007, 11:28 AM   #5
kraaijer
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,031
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Belgium
Default

Well yes, that's short but that's due to one of 2 things:

1, you're an extremely accomplished flyer and doing amazing 3D'zzzz, or
2, you crash it early...

Otherwise you get more out of it. It does us more electrons then the 430XL, but to me that's worth it.

Ron
__________________
Goblin 630, Vibe 50, trex 500, 450, mcpx v2 and mcpx bl. All fbl of course...:-)
kraaijer is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2007, 11:48 AM   #6
Funky
Registered Users
 
Posts: 4,513
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Westerville, OH - USA
Default

For the Scorpion at 95% throttle on 12 tooth I used an average of 1500mah in 4 1/2 mins. Headspeed is ~3000. 5 mins puts me right on the edge of 80% lipo used.

Running a normal curve of 0,60,80,90,100 I could get 7 mins using 1500-1600mah.

My Scorpion is slightly more efficient than my 430XL was, although not by very much. On average I would use 100-150mah less with the scorpion for the same flight time/pinion as the 430XL.
__________________
More helis than brains
Funky is online now        Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2007, 01:14 PM   #7
ke6d
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,477
 

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Milpitas, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Funky View Post
For the Scorpion at 95% throttle on 12 tooth I used an average of 1500mah in 4 1/2 mins. Headspeed is ~3000. 5 mins puts me right on the edge of 80% lipo used.

Running a normal curve of 0,60,80,90,100 I could get 7 mins using 1500-1600mah.

My Scorpion is slightly more efficient than my 430XL was, although not by very much. On average I would use 100-150mah less with the scorpion for the same flight time/pinion as the 430XL.

Yes, I experienced the same flight time on my set up. I can fly standard 3D (loops, rolls, flips, stall turns, 540...) for 5 minutes at 90% throttle curve on 12 tooth pinion.

I can do pretty much the same thing for 6 minutes on the 430XL motor (the headspeed on the 430XL is tag lower than the Scorpion)

Both setups discharged about 1500-1600 mAH

GL,

Dan, KE6D
ke6d is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2007, 01:59 PM   #8
Funky
Registered Users
 
Posts: 4,513
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Westerville, OH - USA
Default

You had better efficiency out of your 430XL than your Scorpion?

It should also be noted that my 430XL had over 400 flights when I tested it against the Scorpion which was brand new. I am not sure if I would have had different results with 2 new motors
__________________
More helis than brains
Funky is online now        Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2007, 12:19 AM   #9
dieselracer
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,312
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: VIsta Ca
Default

Here's what i have found so far. Between the motor's i have tried. I didnt even bother to go back to the 430l.

I recently replaced my 430XL with a Scorpion 2221-8. I noticed that my shaft of the XL had a lot of play, and that it had a wobbles to it. I ignored it. then the motor started to feel weaker. SO then i changed it to the Scorpion. I was only running my old Xl because i have an 1107 Neu motor being repaired. It has now been 7 weeks BTW!! Heres what i found.

_____________430xL__________2221-8 ________Neu 1107 2y No fan.
FLight TIme____3 min__________ 3 min __________5 Min
Motor temp.____128F ___________108F ___________105F
Volts per cell __ 3.77-3.80 _____ 3.65-3.70 _______ 3.78-3.80
Battery Temp.____130F __________120F ___________105F
CC45 Temp ______98F___________115F_____________95F
Throttle __________62%_________63%___________100%
RPM HS(GOVRND)__3400___________3400 ___________3200 (not governed)
Pinion____________15T_________15T____________13T
Pitch____________13/-13 ______13/-13_________13/-13
Lipo_______________AirThunder 11.1 2200___________________

The power of the motor is about the same. I was able to be a little harder on the scorpion then on the XL. BUt not very much. I could feel very little difference between them. I'm sure that a brand new XL would have been stronger then mine. I think basically its almost the same power. The Scorpion ran cool, as expected since it has no Case. Even though the battery's were a little cooler at the end of the flight, it did leave them at a lower Voltage. So i dont think its any more efficient. I personally would not upgrade to it. unless you burn out your XL and can't afford a Neu motor. It doesnt have much more power, and doesnt give you longer flight times. I would buy it over the XL Since its a Tad stronger. But im not impressed with it.

I had to use governer Mode on the XL in order to get them to feel closer to the Neu motor. XL on 13 is easily bogable, However the Neu motor is unbogable on 13 Tooth. I can still BOG the XL and Scorpion on the 15 tooth (GOV.) set up. but it is ALOT harder to do so now. When i get my Neu Back i will try the 15T Governed to 3400 RPM. See what happens. Hope this is Useful.
dieselracer is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2007, 08:41 PM   #10
ke6d
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,477
 

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Milpitas, CA
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Funky View Post
You had better efficiency out of your 430XL than your Scorpion?

It should also be noted that my 430XL had over 400 flights when I tested it against the Scorpion which was brand new. I am not sure if I would have had different results with 2 new motors
Funky,

I must say the Scorpion motor is more powerful than the 430XL (Is sucking more current and pushing more rpm out of the same ESC and same pinion at the same throttle curve setup at the expense of flight time qualify it as a more powerful motor?) I fly a 430XL/CC35/11T/4S setup at 3000 rpm TRex for about a year. I log the flight time/charge put back/ voltage at time of charging so I have very good idea about the condition of the battery/motor combination. The throttle curve on my 430XL/CC35 is 80, 77, 72, 77, 80 to give out a 3000 rpm headspeed. I can fly for 7 min 30 secs doing standard 3D maneuvers. I put back 1500 mA to the pack.

Since I crashed the heli with Scorpion motor installed a couple weeks ago, I decided to move the motor over to the heli with the 4S setup to see if I can detect any performance improvement.

This morning, I took the heli with 4S setup (now with the Scorpion motor in place of the 430XL motor) for a test spin. The pinion/ESC/ throttle curve setting is the same as the old setup. I had to adjust the ESC for the low and high throttle setting for the new motor. I also use the same battery pack that I have been flying to make sure that everything is the same except the motor.

Right after take off, I noted right away that my 4S TRex is definitely on steroid! The headspeed is now at least 3200 rpm. It is twitchy at the very least. The gyro gain that I have been using now causes the tail to wag a little. I had to back off on the gyro gain to get the tail not to wag. I spent the first battery pack to fly around doing a few loops and rolls to get myself adjusted to a much higher headspeed that I am accustomed to fly.

After I landed, I put in a new battery pack, then proceed to check out the new motor. I was able to throw the heli up and down. Flip/roll/pitch pumping it anyway I like with out bogging the motor. At the end of the 6 min flight, the headspeed didn't even drop.

When I charged the pack, 1400 mA was put back into the pack. So base on the data from the first 2 flights, the Scorpion motor is more powerful than the 430XL motor. I lose about 1 min 30 sec of flight time due to the higher headspeed, but my new 4S setup heli is now flying like a pocket missile!

I will put the micro logger into this heli to take some data tomorrow. It will be interesting to see what kind of current/headspeed I get out of the Scorpion motor.

Dan, KE6D
ke6d is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2007, 09:46 PM   #11
heliboy88
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: HK--Phils
Default

Wow, i'm lucky to have seen this thread, i'm trying to figure out what motor to upgrade for my SEv2, and it seems the scorpion is quite good but i have to suffer more flight times than the 430XL. I was also looking at the Medusa and the Neu motors, i know it's a bit costly but hope i can get more infos on these 2 motors especially the Neu ones(i'm leaning on the Neu cus i've heard that it is very efficient thus i runs very cool). Thanks a lot guys for these valuable infos, this will definitely help me decide the best motor that suits my needs and not getting the wrong one then regret for life.
Dieselracer - is the Neu 1107-2y the way to go for the trex on 3S? I've checked the Neu motors on some online site but the infos are not enough i think(like there's a 1107H which they claim to be the newer version). So can you pls give me more infos on the Neu motors(just on 3S is enough)? And also besides from the 1107-2y, is there any other Neu model that can be used for the trex? A comparison will be great.
Thanks in advance for any info and tip i can get.

Best regards,
Rich
heliboy88 is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2007, 11:43 PM   #12
dieselracer
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,312
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: VIsta Ca
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by heliboy88 View Post
Wow, i'm lucky to have seen this thread, i'm trying to figure out what motor to upgrade for my SEv2, and it seems the scorpion is quite good but i have to suffer more flight times than the 430XL. I was also looking at the Medusa and the Neu motors, i know it's a bit costly but hope i can get more infos on these 2 motors especially the Neu ones(i'm leaning on the Neu cus i've heard that it is very efficient thus i runs very cool). Thanks a lot guys for these valuable infos, this will definitely help me decide the best motor that suits my needs and not getting the wrong one then regret for life.
Dieselracer - is the Neu 1107-2y the way to go for the trex on 3S? I've checked the Neu motors on some online site but the infos are not enough i think(like there's a 1107H which they claim to be the newer version). So can you pls give me more infos on the Neu motors(just on 3S is enough)? And also besides from the 1107-2y, is there any other Neu model that can be used for the trex? A comparison will be great.
Thanks in advance for any info and tip i can get.

Best regards,
Rich

Yes I have the older version 1107/2y. The new ones with the "H" have a fan. There are two versions of the new "H". The 1107H/1.5 is for 3s only and supose to be the strongest set up. but arcording to Neu this requires a 45 amp ESC. The 1107H/2y is for 3s and 4s and you can get away with a a 35amp ESC. When i sent out my Neu for repair I was very close to buying the new style. But i didnt think i need to since even with 14/-14 full collective tic toc (on purpose), it was impossable to bog. This is on carbon blade's though. on woodies i can see it bogging. So i did not feel the need to buy the newer version. The motor at the end of the flight would be between 100-110 degrees. The thing i loved about the neu over the XL and Scorpion, is that the neu made my weaker 15c and 16c Lipos feel just as strong as my 25c Thunder Power Extreme and Air Thunder lipos. With the XL and Scorpion The weaker Lipos would heat up alot and feel weaker.

Like i said i do have the Older version. I can only assume that the new ones are better. The 1107H/1.5 is suppose to be the way to go on 3s!

I do remeber when i get my Neu It was stronger, But i was not too impressed because of all the stuff i read on the forums. BUt once i swapped over to a CC45! It was amazing!! ESC has alot to do with it. If you are looking for just power and dont care much for flight time. you can get a CC45 for you XL and then govern it. Lets say you want 3200 Rpm get a 14 tooth and govern it to 3200 RPM. and you will get insane power. and im my case i got better flight times. but that was because of the way i fly, and bogging would pull alot of amps. Im running 15tooth govern to 3400 RPM. Crazy power even with the XL!
dieselracer is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2007, 01:16 AM   #13
heliboy88
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: HK--Phils
Default

Thanks a ton dieselracer, thanks for your very detailed infos. I'm really looking at a more efficient motor(thus cooler), and now you've proved that the Neu is really a good choice. But just wanna ask how come you'll need a 45A ESC when the motor is so efficient that it might not pull that much amp like other motors do. I'm not trying to argue with you but just wanna know more about these electronic thing before i go for it. Or am i missing something here?
heliboy88 is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2007, 07:33 AM   #14
TomRex
Registered Users
 
Posts: 2,282
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: May 2006
Location: WPB Florida
Default

3s more amps, 4s less amps is the way it works
TomRex is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2007, 08:37 AM   #15
Funky
Registered Users
 
Posts: 4,513
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Westerville, OH - USA
Default

KE6D, I am assuming you are running carbon blades? I am still running woodies and my times aren't anywhere close to that. I just switched to a new belt, so my drivetrain is a little stiff too. I am running my Scorpion on 4s with an 11 tooth pinion on a CC35 too. I have only been flying this setup for 2 weeks though. I have mostly been running 80% flat and 85% flat. At 85% flat I can fly 5:15 for around 1700 mah. At 80% flat for 5:15 I use between 1500 and 1600mah. I'll be taching it this weekend at 80, 90, and 95% throttle to see what headspeeds I am running. I get a pretty signifigant drop off in power throughout the flight too, it gets worse the higher I run my curve. I might also try 12 tooth this weekend to see what headspeed I get at 75 and 80% flat. Once I find the best compromise of headspeed/bogging/heat/mah used/etc I will be trying gov mode on the ESC to see how well it holds.
__________________
More helis than brains
Funky is online now        Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2007, 09:05 AM   #16
Richardmid1
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Leeds
Default

I have just tried the Scorpion this morning and thought it was ballistic on 3s with 13T! Im guessing around 3300 HS! This was with FP 2170 EVO 25 and TP Extreme V2 packs. Im gonna try 12T which will be easier on the ESC and packs and should still give around 3100 on the head.
Richardmid1 is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2007, 09:44 AM   #17
0636
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: US
Default

This is my Scorpion 2221-8 on 12 teeth pinion 3s, 325mm pro blades, throttle curve 100,95,90,95,100.

http://www.helifreak.com/attachment....3&d=1195255818

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richardmid1 View Post
I have just tried the Scorpion this morning and thought it was ballistic on 3s with 13T! Im guessing around 3300 HS! This was with FP 2170 EVO 25 and TP Extreme V2 packs. Im gonna try 12T which will be easier on the ESC and packs and should still give around 3100 on the head.
0636 is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2007, 01:34 PM   #18
ke6d
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,477
 

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Milpitas, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Funky View Post
KE6D, I am assuming you are running carbon blades? I am still running woodies and my times aren't anywhere close to that. I just switched to a new belt, so my drivetrain is a little stiff too. I am running my Scorpion on 4s with an 11 tooth pinion on a CC35 too. I have only been flying this setup for 2 weeks though. I have mostly been running 80% flat and 85% flat. At 85% flat I can fly 5:15 for around 1700 mah. At 80% flat for 5:15 I use between 1500 and 1600mah. I'll be taching it this weekend at 80, 90, and 95% throttle to see what headspeeds I am running. I get a pretty signifigant drop off in power throughout the flight too, it gets worse the higher I run my curve. I might also try 12 tooth this weekend to see what headspeed I get at 75 and 80% flat. Once I find the best compromise of headspeed/bogging/heat/mah used/etc I will be trying gov mode on the ESC to see how well it holds.
Hi Funky,

I took some data with micro-recorder this morning. Unfortunately, the speed sensor was acting up. I could not record the headspeed. I had to ask someone with an optical tach to measure it for me. The headspeed of the Scorpion motor on 4S is around 3200-3300 rpm as suspected. I could pitch pumped the the heli very hard without any kind of bogging. The heli actually accelerated upward! People at the field was asking me what I was running because my heli was now flying like a "rocket missile"! I could fly comfortably for 6:00 min and put back 1400-1500 mA.

Looking at the plot, the Scorpion motor now pushing pretty close to 400 watt during pitch pumping. I am pretty sure increasing the throttle curve would push it over the 35A limit of the CC35, but 3200 rpm is a lot of headspeed! The only problem I have now is the tail is holding but slightly wag during some rough turn! At the current headspeed, a couple of % in gyro gain can cause the tail to wag or wander! If I decrease the headspeed to around 3000 rpm, the tail is holding perfectly.

Attached are the plots of the 2 motors running on 4S, same battery, same ESC.

Dan, KE6D

PS: Yes, I am running carbon blades. It is more expensive to crash but is much safer at this speed!
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Scorpion_4S.jpg
Views:	35
Size:	102.1 KB
ID:	31247   Click image for larger version

Name:	430XL_4S.jpg
Views:	38
Size:	94.9 KB
ID:	31248  
ke6d is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2007, 02:12 PM   #19
ke6d
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,477
 

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Milpitas, CA
Default

I just finished charging the battery that I test flew this morning. The charger indicated that 1100 mA went back to the pack. Pretty close to what the recorder indicated in the plot.

I also noticed that hovering with the Scorpion motor on 4S now takes a couple of Amps more than the 430XL motor.

The nice thing about my set up is that I can also run 3S battery without changing anything since the CC35 is configured to automatically recognize the Lipo cell counts.

With the 3S battery, my TRex can fly also for 6:00 min at 2600 rpm headspeed. Pretty good speed for learning inverted flying!

Dan, KE6D
ke6d is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2007, 02:14 PM   #20
Funky
Registered Users
 
Posts: 4,513
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Westerville, OH - USA
Default

Thanks for the info Dan. I am waiting on the new Eagletree V3 before I buy one so its great to see your graph considering our setups are very similar. Have you tried gov mode at all with the Scorpion on 4s? I am finally taching mine tomorrow and then I will be trying gov mode to see how it works. I'll try 3000,3100 and 3200 in gov mode. I hated gov mode on my Align ESC, but I am hoping for better results out of the CC.

I am also flying mine on 3s for collective management practice. Its a real dog when you come off one of those 4s packs, but it definately helps my timing.

I agree about the blades... but unfortunately I am cursed when it comes to carbon blades on my Rex

Which lipos are you running?
__________________
More helis than brains
Funky is online now        Reply With Quote
Reply




Unregistered
Go Back   HeliFreak > R/C Helicopter Support > 450 Class Electric Helicopters


450 Class Electric Helicopters 450 Class Electric Helicopters manufactured by Align, Tarot, SYMA, Airhog, Chaos, HK and similar.

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


Copyright © 2004-2011 - William James - Helifreak.com