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450 PRO Class Electric Helicopters 450 PRO Class Electric Helicopters manufactured by Align, Tarot, SYMA, Airhog, Chaos, HK and similar.


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Old 08-08-2013, 04:20 PM   #81
ColinSouthern
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Originally Posted by dwdw910 View Post
You said Poppycock and Bulldust... but yet offered no insight into the explanation.
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A 3s battery can barely pull 325mm blades.
And then you change your tune ...

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I've already acknowledged a 3s can perform
I rest my case.
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Old 08-08-2013, 04:21 PM   #82
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Default New Trex 450 L Dominator!

I hadn't picked up on the HV servos. It might actually make sense for them to offer a 3S LV Combo with 3GX MRS and a 6S HV combo with full 3GX.

I wonder if that also means there will be an HV servo for the tail as well or if it will be using a step down.
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Old 08-08-2013, 04:24 PM   #83
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Man, I can't beleive you just want one or the other! I want them both (450L and 800DFC)!!!
I'd definitely keep my 4x T-Rex 450's. The 800 wouldn't be able to be flown in any of the areas I fly my 450s.
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Old 08-08-2013, 04:31 PM   #84
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dwd-

How do you like that new 3.1 software on the 3GX? I just picked up another DFC pro and am debating whether to pick up another mini vbar or just go with a 3GX. I can pick up a new 3GX for $95 vs $275 for the mini vbar (including the pro software upgrade). I'm thinking I can save the extra $180 and put it towards this new 450L! I havn't owned nor flown an Align fbl system since I had my original 3G three years ago.
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Old 08-08-2013, 04:31 PM   #85
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Colin

You rest your case? You've proven nothing.

You took two pieces of my conversation out of context and 'made your point'.

I offered a variety of examples and reasoning to back up my claim.

Troll on.
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Old 08-08-2013, 04:33 PM   #86
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Don't need HV servos to have top performance.
Let's see how their new hardware performs, too early to give high praises to their new stuff when it's not out yet
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Old 08-08-2013, 04:34 PM   #87
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dwd-

How do you like that new 3.1 software on the 3GX? I just picked up another DFC pro and am debating whether to pick up another mini vbar or just go with a 3GX. I can pick up a new 3GX for $95 vs $275 for the mini vbar (including the pro software upgrade). I'm thinking I can save the extra $180 and put it towards this new 450L! I havn't owned nor flown an Align fbl system since I had my original 3G three years ago.
I love 3.1

I had all the same quircks and problems you hear about with the earlier versions... but 3.1 is a whole new world.

I just hope they can get the governor function going for E helis... and blue tooth.

Then I swear I'd never complain ever again.
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Old 08-08-2013, 04:34 PM   #88
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Probably, but my guess is that you won't notice it to much when flying 6s due to the lower amp draw.
I would expect the degradation to show up as an increase in effective IR under load - so you'd get 1/2 the voltage drop, but over twice as many cells.

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There are more things to consider.
-Many people report having way longer flight times on 6s, 5-6 minutes 3D vs 3.30minutes.
I've heard this too, but I'm also hearing conflicting reports on it. At the end of the day, both are still lifting off with exactly the same amount of energy, and I'm not convinced that only the difference in efficiency could account for a gap that wide.

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-bad soldering isn't as dangerous on 6s as on 3s making fewer beginners fail and makes bad factory soldering less probe to make problems.
Meh - to be honest, they really shouldn't be making bad joints on either -- it's really not that hard, esp considering all of the videos on youtube.

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-lower temp on ESC makes you able to keep it in frame.
Not sure how big a problem this is for people - my CC Edge 50 with KDE Motor mid-timing / 12k PWM is topping out at 70 degC (where the max the unit can handle is 100 degC) on max performance runs.

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-faster charging of lipos at the same charge C.
Not sure about that - I parallel charge 6x 3S in about 40 minutes.

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Of course a 3s can be a badass machine. No doubt, just look at Alan Szabos old 450 videos or kyle dahls indoor flight from a couple of year back.
But overall, it's a step forward in development and I wouldn't reduce it to being mostly a marketing trick.
It's probably both, but I wouldn't discount the influence of the marketing departments. The camera MP race was the classic example; up photographers were tearing our hair out - all the boffins agrees that it made little to no sense - and yet they kept doing it for a long time.
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Old 08-08-2013, 04:37 PM   #89
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Don't need HV servos to have top performance.
Let's see how their new hardware performs, too early to give high praises to their new stuff when it's not out yet

Are you serious? You are making the same argument we just talked about with 3s versus 6s.

More voltage= More power and torque. Torque is proportional to current. But I'll prove my claim by example- not jargon.

Someone here once made a thread about 3s versus 6s and posted all their data logs with tons of technical jargon- people then read it and now believe that voltage is not a factor in performance.

The rest of the world disagrees.

Colin- you still have yet to explain why the new high powered cordless drills are higher voltage?

Why can't you race in ROAR RC with a higher voltage battery?

How does voltage not directly relate to power and torque?

Why does the 450mx perform light years better on 4s than 3s?
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Old 08-08-2013, 04:44 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by jetblue2135 View Post
dwd-

How do you like that new 3.1 software on the 3GX? I just picked up another DFC pro and am debating whether to pick up another mini vbar or just go with a 3GX. I can pick up a new 3GX for $95 vs $275 for the mini vbar (including the pro software upgrade). I'm thinking I can save the extra $180 and put it towards this new 450L! I havn't owned nor flown an Align fbl system since I had my original 3G three years ago.
If you have no problem spending the extra, I would get a mini vbar or beastx for it. I have run the 3gx and while it is great in the air, it is still not to the level of some of their competition. The latest software releases are helping a lot, 3.0 and 3.1 were a big step forward, but the other flybarless units I listed are still better IMO.
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Old 08-08-2013, 04:50 PM   #91
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.

More voltage= More power and torque.
I hate to disagree, but more voltage doesn't mean more power. Power = Volts x Amps

11.1v x 2.2amps = 24.5 Watts

22.2v x 1.1amps = 24.5 Watts

Your starting amount of power is exactly the same.

I'm not going to argue the merits of 6s vs 3s (I fly 3s, but have no issues with 6s and may build one someday), but throwing out assertions that defy the laws of physics doesn't make them true.

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Old 08-08-2013, 04:54 PM   #92
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Boykster,

Ok... then explain why a cordless drill performs with more power and torque with a higher voltage?

You are just taking formulas and jargon and not providing examples.

To clarify I said that torque is proportional to current. Look it up.

In regards to a helicopter... having the torque to pull a lot of air scooping resistance equates to more power and performance.

Ive given like 4 examples of how higher voltage motors perform with more speed and torque... outside of this hobby and in it...

You have provided none. Just the same formulas and jargon of that original thread.

-HV servos have more speed and torque
-Cordless drills have more torque with higher voltage
-RC Cars have rules about voltage in racing
-the 450mx performs dramatically different on 4s than 3s

Examples and data prove mathematics... until then- they are theory. Physicists had the mathematical equation to catch a baseball- Until it hit them in the head and they forgot it.

PS.. Im not arguing that Volts times current is the formula for power in any electrical circuit. This equation is used to determine how much power the motor DRAWS..... not makes. You are defying the laws of physics by incorrectly interpreting a formula. So they both draw the same amount.... does that mean one of the motors could not make more BHP on a dynamometer? More torque on a Dyno?

I'm using power in the sense of the word like the power to ascend and descend rapidly without bogging.
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Old 08-08-2013, 05:06 PM   #93
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Default New Trex 450 L Dominator!

Dwd, I'm not an engineer, but I do remember reading here on HF (could it be jetBlue that wrote it?) that the it's the efficiency that's increased due to lower heat build up which makes it possible to make a more powerful motor in the same size without having the windings burn. Pretty much the same reason you use very high voltage in power lines instead of increasing the amperage.
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Old 08-08-2013, 05:12 PM   #94
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Thanks for the support and example Togy... I can always appreciate an example to go along with a claim.

If higher voltage doesn't matter..... according to those who disagree.....


Then WHY is there a high voltage revolution in the modern world?

Why do helicopter manufacturers make HV equipment?

Why do cordless tool manufacturers make HV equipment?

Why do hybrid cars like the Toyota Prius use HV motors?
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Old 08-08-2013, 05:15 PM   #95
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I've had my 450 on both 4s and 3s. See videos below. Not much difference since align came out with the 450mx. The 450mx is a great motor. I'm currently running 3s since the 450mx motor came out and couldn't be happier.

This new 450L is going to be a rocket ship. Cant wait for the 6s beast. Keep in mind most of us ( or all) don't fly as hard as kenny which plays a large part on the flight time.


450MX on a very old battery


4S setup on new packs.


Mickey
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Old 08-08-2013, 05:24 PM   #96
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Debate aside, I'm looking forward to this machine. The 450L, Gaui X3, Warp 360, and stretched Mini Protos... it would be nice to see this class of heli continue to expand. SAB's been making noise about a "unique" 450 class heli, too.
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Old 08-08-2013, 05:24 PM   #97
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I hadn't planned to ever buy another 450 but I might just have to replace one of them with a 450L now.
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Ok... then explain why a cordless drill performs with more power and torque with a higher voltage?
Basically higher power output but less current so also less copper/conduction losses.

My view is basically that it will cost you significantly more to get the same performance out of a 3S setup(much higher C batteries, KDE motor etc.) so why bother? Unless you're already so heavily invested in 3S batteries it would make little sense.
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Old 08-08-2013, 05:29 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by mickeyjohnston View Post
I've had my 450 on both 4s and 3s. See videos below. Not much difference since align came out with the 450mx. The 450mx is a great motor. I'm currently running 3s since the 450mx motor came out and couldn't be happier.

This new 450L is going to be a rocket ship. Cant wait for the 6s beast. Keep in mind most of us ( or all) don't fly as hard as kenny which plays a large part on the flight time.


Mickey

Impressive flying Mickey! I've seen that field before in a video, do you fly a DFC 700 there too?
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Old 08-08-2013, 05:49 PM   #99
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I'm beginning to notice a trend here. The people that like 6S, have a 6S 450 Pro setup. The people that don't think 6S is necessary, they have a 3S setup...

There is more to it than just the numbers, formulas, etc... Real world examples will always outweigh theory... Honestly, I'm having a hard time understanding why this is so hard for so many people to grasp.
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Old 08-08-2013, 05:58 PM   #100
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Ok... then explain why a cordless drill performs with more power and torque with a higher voltage?
There's no such thing as a free lunch when it comes to physics. If it has more torque - and it has "more power" then it either has to achieve that over a shorter time for the same energy used, or you have to supply it with more power. In the context of RC Helicopters this equates to either shorter flight times or the need for bigger batteries.

Quote:
To clarify I said that torque is proportional to current. Look it up.

In regards to a helicopter... having the torque to pull a lot of air scooping resistance equates to more power and performance.
Torque is also inversely proportional to speed; for the same amount of power (ie from a 3S or 6S 22.42 WattHour battery) (2.2 x 11.1 or 1.1 x 22.2) so it's always a trade-off. Again, you can't cheat the laws of physics or we'd all be fitting generators to our helicopters to recharge the batteries from the main rotor whilst in flight.

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Examples and data prove mathematics... until then- they are theory.
I think it's pretty safe to assume that the maths and physics of electric motors were well and truly proved a long time ago.

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PS.. Im not arguing that Volts times current is the formula for power in any electrical circuit. This equation is used to determine how much power the motor DRAWS..... not makes.
Thank goodness for that -- or I'd have to seek a refund on my 7 years of training as an electrical engineer with the NZ Defense force!

The bottom line is that pretty much the ONLY variance between energy drawn and energy effectively delivered (assuming same losses due to rotor inefficiencies) is motor efficiency. Again, higher torque doesn't necessarily equate to higher efficiency; if it has more torque AND it's more efficient then great - you'll get longer flight times with higher performance, but if it doesn't, then you'll get higher performance with shorter flight times.

Which is it for 6S -v- 3S? As I said before, I'm still not convinced it's all down to increased efficiency when I can see the shiny examples of the KDE video delivering comparable torque and duration with both setups - thus suggesting to me that for similar levels of performance and energy delivered, they're enjoying similar levels of efficiency -- thus the reason I feel the jury is still out on alleged "night and day" of 6S -v- 3S.

Again, just because the 450L is 6S and delivering insane performance, it's NOT a given that this is due solely to it being a 6S setup - as previously explained, it's running bigger blades at a higher RPM thus requiring more energy from a more powerful and/or more efficient motor. I DON'T believe that all of that extra energy is simply coming from increased efficiency of a 6S setup -- my gut feeling based on my experience is that other variables are also involved.
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