Fun, Learning, Friendship and Mutual Respect
START  HERE


Unregistered
Go Back   HeliFreak > R/C Helicopters > Main Forum - Helicopter Talk


Main Forum - Helicopter Talk R/C Helicopters and the people who fly them. VENDOR TOPICS DO NOT GO HERE. Full Scale Heli threads go in OT please


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-10-2014, 05:19 PM   #21
Hawk404
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: FL, USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Rotation View Post
That's what I did, too. It works fine at home, it's just not something I want to ever take with me.

Even at home gets to be a challenge in the context of a rental property - unless all the pieces come pre-cut because nothing resembling a saw will be available.

Looking at the SOKO videos one would infer it's workable with nothing other than a kitchen table and a ream of paper but that's just not so, at least not in all cases.

jbobb1's rig is nice - something to clamp the limp noodle landing gear and something else to take the place of the paper and playing cards. But the SOKO is no longer an inexpensive proposition if you have to buy a house or purchase a leveling table from some scientific or photographic supply house, or go into indentured servitude to get someone not living in a rental to do it for you.

I believe these SOKO hosannas need divided into three classes:

1. It's great and I use it "as is" except for a ream of copier paper and a roll of toilet tissue.

or.

2. It's great and I use it with a leveling table I have left over from my laser holography hobby, or built from carpentry tools I have acquired over a lifetime.

or.

3. It's essentially unusable on a kitchen table "as is" unless the machine is 600 class or above.


I'm all over number 3. Number 1 just isn't working for me and number 2 would require the purchase of a house.
Hawk404 is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2014, 07:25 PM   #22
Luvmyhelis
Registered Users
 
Posts: 9,318
 

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: spokane,washington
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Rotation View Post
That's what I did, too. It works fine at home, it's just not something I want to ever take with me.
All the guys at our field use the cheaply built fiber board three legged leveling stands. And we use them at the field. I am the only one currently using the Soko tool. But the leveling stand works with all the digital and standard gauges just setting it up level on a tail gate. I also setup a friends highly slanted Warp with it last week. The leveling board itself made the entire setup procedure with his Warp ten times easier. Soko tool or not.
__________________
Jeti DS-16 800 Triabolo Gob 800 Gob 700 Custom 600 Sk720Blk Gps SK540 Sk360 YGE/YEP MKS/Outrage/Turnigy RcTec Boca Herc/Gryphon/Scott Gray Reactor Scorp KDE SHS Tenax Lynx
Luvmyhelis is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2014, 07:52 PM   #23
Dsss
Registered Users
 
Posts: 813
 

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: NV
Default

jbob1 that is a simple and great idea. thanks!
__________________
Logo 600sx , Gaui X3
Dsss is online now        Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2014, 08:22 PM   #24
numbermonkey
Registered Users
 

Join Date: May 2013
Location: Argyle, TX
Default

CPO is a member here. Among his great instructional vids is this one on how to cheaply build a DIY leveling stand.

http://everythingcpo.com/cpo/cpos-di...form-part-one/
numbermonkey is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2014, 09:24 PM   #25
Hawk404
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: FL, USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by numbermonkey View Post
CPO is a member here. Among his great instructional vids is this one on how to cheaply build a DIY leveling stand.

http://everythingcpo.com/cpo/cpos-di...form-part-one/
Nonsense.

I'm sure he's a great guy and I appreciate the time that he took to do the video but it displays the same breathtaking hubris and collection of bad assumptions that are running rampant in this thread.

I'm only 11 minutes into the 45 minute thread and I'm already seeing a 35.00 carpenter's square and reference to a 450.00 table saw.


I guess the take away from this thread is that if you don't have the infrastructure in place to build a 7.00 leveling table it will run a minimum of half a thousand dollars to even start. Not counting the quarter million for the house with the garage to put the saw in.

C'mon guys, the claim made for the SOKO tool is that it works with a dollar's worth of copier paper - does it or does it not? I'm gathering: "not".
Hawk404 is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2014, 09:49 PM   #26
smwht
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: MD
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawk404 View Post
C'mon guys, the claim made for the SOKO tool is that it works with a dollar's worth of copier paper - does it or does it not? I'm gathering: "not".
Yes, it does. I've set up 3 helis with it that way (Goblin 500, Gaui X3, Gaui X5) and it was pretty easy to do on all three. The goblin was probably the most difficult, since it required so much paper to level (I ended up using an AMA magazine or two under the front, hah) and it doesn't have a head button to get the main shaft parallel so you have to use the measure, turn, measure, average, adjust, verify method.

It helps that my desk happens to be spirit level (or at least damn close), but most of the helis don't sit level anyways.

Bit of fiddling with paper under the front of the skids then under one skid is all it takes. Sure, it'd probably be faster with a fancy leveling table, but it's still a lot quicker than fiddling with a pitch gauge on the blade to try to set min/0/max pitch.
__________________
TT E700 / ikon || Gaui X5 / vbar || Goblin 500 / sk540 || Gaui X3 / vbar || Blade mCPX BL || Spektrum DX8
smwht is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2014, 10:07 PM   #27
jbobb1
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,317
 

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Springfield,Ohio
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawk404 View Post
Nonsense.

I'm sure he's a great guy and I appreciate the time that he took to do the video but it displays the same breathtaking hubris and collection of bad assumptions that are running rampant in this thread.

I'm only 11 minutes into the 45 minute thread and I'm already seeing a 35.00 carpenter's square and reference to a 450.00 table saw.


I guess the take away from this thread is that if you don't have the infrastructure in place to build a 7.00 leveling table it will run a minimum of half a thousand dollars to even start. Not counting the quarter million for the house with the garage to put the saw in.

C'mon guys, the claim made for the SOKO tool is that it works with a dollar's worth of copier paper - does it or does it not? I'm gathering: "not".
If you had the opportunity to use the Soko, I think your opinion would change. As far as the leveling table goes, that's just makes things simplified. It's NOT a necessity.
Oh, by the way. I used this table way before I ever got the Soko and it cost me $18.00 to make and I used a hand saw and a cordless drill!
__________________
Gaui X2 w/Mini Vbar / Gaui X3 w/iKon / Gaui X3 w/iKon / Goblin 500 w/iKon
DX8
jbobb1 is online now        Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2014, 05:28 AM   #28
tracernz
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: New Zealand
Default

I did my Goblin using a bit of wedge shaped balsa wood on the kitchen bench. Not real hard to do... You could probably use a couple of doorstops if you like, just got to be a little creative.
__________________
| Jeti DS-16 | Compass 7HV / HC3SX | SAB Goblin 500 / iKON | Align Trex 500e DFC / AR7200BX | Tarot 450 Pro DFC / iKON |
tracernz is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2014, 07:16 AM   #29
velocity90
Registered Users
 
Posts: 2,635
 

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Netherlands
Default Re: Recent SOKO Kit purchase...love it

When you guys are done leveling the shaft, I have leveled the swash:p

Why bother with paper. You have a tool in which you can set zero!

Move it over 1 servo, zero it on top of the head, and trim, go to servo 2,zero leveler again on the head and trim.

5 minutes. I do this on all my helis, also level at bottom and top. Very precise.
__________________
-Gaui X7-vbar-mks950-980-Jeti Mezon 135 rpm-PD4530YY/Voodoo 600 -PD-MX700-470kv--BLS255hv-VBAR 5.3+- Warp 360- -ACCURC-
velocity90 is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2014, 07:22 AM   #30
numbermonkey
Registered Users
 

Join Date: May 2013
Location: Argyle, TX
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawk404 View Post
Nonsense.

I'm sure he's a great guy and I appreciate the time that he took to do the video but it displays the same breathtaking hubris and collection of bad assumptions that are running rampant in this thread.

I'm only 11 minutes into the 45 minute thread and I'm already seeing a 35.00 carpenter's square and reference to a 450.00 table saw.


I guess the take away from this thread is that if you don't have the infrastructure in place to build a 7.00 leveling table it will run a minimum of half a thousand dollars to even start. Not counting the quarter million for the house with the garage to put the saw in.

C'mon guys, the claim made for the SOKO tool is that it works with a dollar's worth of copier paper - does it or does it not? I'm gathering: "not".
The larger DIY stores will cut the wood you purchase into any size you want, free of charge. You ever been in one?
numbermonkey is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2014, 08:14 AM   #31
Hawk404
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: FL, USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbobb1 View Post
If you had the opportunity to use the Soko, I think your opinion would change. As far as the leveling table goes, that's just makes things simplified. It's NOT a necessity.
Oh, by the way. I used this table way before I ever got the Soko and it cost me $18.00 to make and I used a hand saw and a cordless drill!
I have a SOKO and I've had copious opportunities to work with it.

I'm reporting on my experiences using it on a desktop that's a long way from level.

If the heli is heavy enough to hold down the paper it works. If it's a Forza 450 the landing gear flexes and it doesn't work. If it's a 500 it works up until it's time to move the thing from one blade holder to the other because the delicate house of cards won't tolerate much yanking and fumbling. (The 500 in question was a Gaui with a pantload of forward rake requiring a lot of paper).

I also question completion of the table with a hand saw and a cordless drill. There was probably a work bench involved or clamps or a couple of concrete blocks to lay the board on and I'd wager the cordless drill didn't attack the thing while resting on the landlord's chrome and glass dining room table. And, FWIW, a decent hand saw (Irwin) is close to 40.00, a cordless drill 100.00 and clamps another 10 or 15. This probably well exceeds the amount spent on the SOKO.

I suppose it's just human nature to forget the cost of everything needed to do something cheaply if it already exists and was most likely amortized eons ago. This is why I research stuff before buying it and either go in another direction or just deal with it - f'rinstance a couple yards of nomex and I can solder nearly anywhere with impunity.

But if someone starts a thread singing hosannas to the SOKO in a vacuum then I feel it's incumbent on someone working with no infrastructure to point out that the SOKO works best with stuff because people like me that have minimal stuff read these sorts of threads and might assume it will do everything needed with nothing other than a ream of paper on all reasonable sizes of heli and it just ain't so. This is based on what I've tried with my own SOKO - not what I'm assuming to be so.
Hawk404 is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2014, 08:24 AM   #32
jbobb1
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,317
 

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Springfield,Ohio
Default

Sorry man, I meant no disrespect. I guess I'm guilty of assuming that most guys have some hand tools. If you're interested in a leveling table of some sort, I'd be more than glad to make it for you if you supply some dimensions. It might take me a couple of weeks due to a busy work schedule. I'm sure a price could be negotiated.
__________________
Gaui X2 w/Mini Vbar / Gaui X3 w/iKon / Gaui X3 w/iKon / Goblin 500 w/iKon
DX8
jbobb1 is online now        Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2014, 08:38 AM   #33
Hawk404
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: FL, USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbobb1 View Post
Sorry man, I meant no disrespect. I guess I'm guilty of assuming that most guys have some hand tools. If you're interested in a leveling table of some sort, I'd be more than glad to make it for you if you supply some dimensions. It might take me a couple of weeks due to a busy work schedule. I'm sure a price could be negotiated.
That's a great offer and much appreciated. But I believe I've already found some stuff out there that might work.

Basic lab tables and cnc tables with leveling gizmos are around 250.00

http://www.rockler.com/rockler-cnc-table

Either one would fit through the front door and I have enough on hand to assemble them. A little more time down the google-hole and I might find something a bit more suitable but the Rockler looks good.

Add some of those skid clamps that pop up in the banner ads and we should be home free. It's worth a look anyway.

Thanks!
Hawk404 is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2014, 08:42 AM   #34
Hawk404
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: FL, USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by numbermonkey View Post
The larger DIY stores will cut the wood you purchase into any size you want, free of charge. You ever been in one?
Only long enough to pick up a Dremel for a Warp and a tubing cutter for a Pantera.

The ones closest to me don't offer the service. One advertises the service but actually invoking the demon is like pulling teeth from a tiger. It's an experience I have no wish to repeat any time soon.
Hawk404 is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2014, 11:24 AM   #35
Busher
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: England
Default

Levelling boards need not be expensive http://www.helifreak.com/attachment....8&d=1391257005

This one was cut from a piece of mdf with a hand saw, the legs are m10 machine screws, with furniture glides on the bottom. The handle was salvaged from the bin, and the eye level was from the pound store. Total cost was around 3' as I had a few bits in my garage, but if I had to buy it all probably about 5. It was constructed in my garage and was done with normal hand tools then varnished with a couple of coats of old floor varnish, you do not need a grands worth of power tools, have a go if nothing else you will have a tool that will come in handy for lots of setting up.
Busher is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2014, 12:10 PM   #36
Hawk404
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: FL, USA
Default

I'll check into this stuff more this evening but the CNC table is looking better and better. I have an 800 that would probably benefit from a larger surface and a little space would be nice to allow for a couple different sets of skid clamps - that would probably put the 450s back on the agenda. I had completely given up on getting the SOKO to work with the Forza. And, unless I miss my guess the CNC table looks like the undercarriage ships in a mailing tube and would presumably break down easily for when I finally escape this lilac-scented prison.

I concur that it wouldn't be a grand's worth of tools but I can see 250.00 pretty easily - and that's the cost of the CNC table.
Hawk404 is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2014, 01:01 PM   #37
bdfox1
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Victoria, BC
Default

Aas is the case with everything attached to this hobby, you can spend whatever you have on bits, pieces and tools. I'll bet the $250 table is beautiful but most of us have no need for such an elaborate and expensive table.

The skid clamps are another good idea except for needing a different set for each heli or at least a couple of sets and some system to move them around to hold different skid spacing. A couple of small strips of good duct tape (Gorilla Tape is the best) hold my skids in the same place for the whole process and are infinitely adjustable.

I think one of the biggest things about the Soko is the methodology he outlines. It is a lot of pages of pictures and text but once you go through it a couple of times I find that it takes less and less time to be just as thorough on subsequent set ups.

Before mine arrived I followed (mostly) their method but using my regular digital pitch gauge on a stub rotor blade. We all have some rotor blade stubs sitting around from the last "hard" landing.

One nice part about it is that the spirit level always plumbs to the same zero. So if the gauge turns itself off while you are in the middle of the setup it is still "zeroed" when you turn it back on. For the regular gauge I always have to take it off and re-zero it whenever that happens.

One of the biggest things that you need to do, regardless of the gauge or method you use, is to always go through the steps exactly the same way. One place where this is important is when you make adjustments you should always exercise the pitch through its whole travel and then come back to the point you are checking from the same direction. No matter how well you build things there is some very small play in all the linkage somewhere so you should load the system from the same direction each time.

Setting zero is where this shows the most. If you adjust and then move the pitch to full up and back to zero you will usually get a very small difference in reading compared to if you took the pitch all the way down and then back to zero.

If you always go the same direction then you will find your settings are very repeatable.

My dollar store cutting board and three adjustable furniture feet are just the trick.

-Barry
bdfox1 is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2014, 01:23 PM   #38
Hawk404
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: FL, USA
Default

I'm kinda liking the idea of frog snot or duct tape - I knew I'd be into several sets of the skid clamps.

I guess the most frustrating episode was the Gaui X4II just because it was going so well - at mid stick the SOKO was showing 00.0 with 12 up and down and not only returned to 00.0 it stayed that way through 360 degrees - I think I moved it in 3 degree increments just for the sheer entertainment of watching it steadfastly display 00.0.

Then...

It didn't want to come out of the blade grip and I gradually encouraged it until - skid - paper and playing cards jostled. Once in grip number 2 it displayed everything from minus 3 to plus 5 - the house of cards had shifted that much and I was just not about to try rebuilding the Jenga tower from scratch - so blade tracking will be handled via Mk 1 eyeball just like in the days before the SOKO - but I know one grip is dead on as well as the swash.

That counts for something.
Hawk404 is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2014, 01:30 PM   #39
Arcturus97
Registered Users
 
Posts: 664
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Northern Virginia
Default

For me the Soko has been fantastic and I haven't bothered to make any sort of leveling table (but will consider it for next rebuild or new kit) or needed anything beyond the paper. I have the V1 RC Logger digital pitch gauge and it doesn't get used any more. With the Soko I have found the limitation of accuracy is now based on full turns of ball links; not the Soko itself. My G700C has turnbuckles from swash to blade grips so can get deadnuts 0 on both sides; even better for the rare folks who have turnbuckles from servo to swash too - no subtrim needed then.

My experience:
  • 600 size Fusion 50, used paper only under skids, worked great
  • Trex 500, used paper only under skids, just had to be more careful not to knock it around
  • Goblin 700C, had to use a lot of paper (actually some softbound training manuals) because of the forward rake, otherwise worked great, see my comment about turnbuckles above
__________________
* Goblin 700C, iKON, Torq 9180/9188, Quantum 4530-500, Edge HV160, Cyclone 695
* Outrage Fusion 50, SK-540, Torq 9180/9188, Quantum 4125-560, ICE2 HV80, Radix V2 625
* Align T-Rex 500E DFC, SK-540, ICE 75
* Futaba 14SG
Arcturus97 is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2014, 01:43 PM   #40
Hawk404
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: FL, USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcturus97 View Post
For me the Soko has been fantastic and I haven't bothered to make any sort of leveling table (but will consider it for next rebuild or new kit) or needed anything beyond the paper. I have the V1 RC Logger digital pitch gauge and it doesn't get used any more. With the Soko I have found the limitation of accuracy is now based on full turns of ball links; not the Soko itself. My G700C has turnbuckles from swash to blade grips so can get deadnuts 0 on both sides; even better for the rare folks who have turnbuckles from servo to swash too - no subtrim needed then.

My experience:
  • 600 size Fusion 50, used paper only under skids, worked great
  • Trex 500, used paper only under skids, just had to be more careful not to knock it around
  • Goblin 700C, had to use a lot of paper (actually some softbound training manuals) because of the forward rake, otherwise worked great, see my comment about turnbuckles above
I'd tend to agree with that - the X4 settled in with one click on two servos and 2 on the third in the iKon setup software. I believe even at 2 clicks it was a finer adjustment than I could get with a full turn on the link.

I also concede that the thing worked pretty well on a 600 and 800.
My 500 made it all the way to changing blade grips before it went south.
And the 450s were unmitigated disasters.

You really can't appreciate how soft the landing gear is on a Forza 450 until you've jacked the SOKO into a blade grip and watched the thing go all limp noodle.
Hawk404 is offline        Reply With Quote
Reply




Unregistered
Go Back   HeliFreak > R/C Helicopters > Main Forum - Helicopter Talk


Main Forum - Helicopter Talk R/C Helicopters and the people who fly them. VENDOR TOPICS DO NOT GO HERE. Full Scale Heli threads go in OT please

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


Copyright © 2004-2011 - William James - Helifreak.com