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Old 04-13-2015, 03:18 PM   #9661
sutty
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Not sure that increase would keep the esc cooler. The esc would definitely run hotter, according to Castle, and not sure why it would make such a dramatic change to motor efficiency. You sure you didn't change something else?

Here's what they say.

This setting changes the frequency with which the controller sends power pulses to the motor. With some motor types, the higher the frequency the more efficient the motor will run, but always at the expense of increased heat within the controller. If you decide to experiment with changes to PWM, use a wattmeter, a tachometer and a temperature gun to find out how changes affect your entire power system. An increase in PWM frequency will always increase the controller temperature. It may or may not decrease the temperature of the motor.

I guess you may have that active freewheeling though too, that they seem to have now. Either way, if you're up to 4m 30s and have shed loads of power, it sounds likes it's time to JGF.

Have fun.

I've done an average of 4 packs per day for around 10 days now, 12 of those with the 600, which flies like it's in slow motion compared to the 550.

I'm still not getting any better though, lol.

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Old 04-13-2015, 04:02 PM   #9662
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Hard to make progress on perfection, Andrew!
Well, I know. We all strive to improve. It's in our DNA. Might be time to drag out the 250 and learn something new.
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Old 04-13-2015, 06:37 PM   #9663
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I dunno Andy could be the freewheel has less losses at a higher PWM. I do know @ 14khz motor,ESC, and lipo all ran hotter and felt after 2 in a row I needed a cool down period. charge results 2200mah 4min FT @14khz 1760-1800mah @16khz 1300-1560mah
Besides that I dropped gov gain 1 point thats it. Well off to fly!

PS. Yeah Tom dust it off!
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Old 04-14-2015, 07:00 AM   #9664
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No, I meant Andrew drag out the 250.

Me, I need to get some flying in real quick. Next Wednesday they carve on my thumb. Dr. ensured me I could still make the Hartsel fpv meet.
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Old 04-14-2015, 02:43 PM   #9665
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PWM frequency is the switching rate used for partial load operartion. With low freq. the losses are reduced but motors run slightly rougher. With high freq. the oposite is true.

ACT. freewheel allows best efficiency in the partial load range whereby the ESC remains clearly cooler.
(as defined in YGE prog card manual)
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Old 04-14-2015, 02:50 PM   #9666
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My bad Tom. I thought you were going to fly a heli. Hell fly anything in your case as much as you can. Though you only need 1 hand to fly planks.
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Old 04-14-2015, 03:48 PM   #9667
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Ok so PWM (KV x VOLTS x POLES) /20) /1000= khz

To me that means PWM Freq. is how the motor will recover from switching partial to full load and vise versa. This is happening more offten running curves and a lower freq. should be used, whereas as goving with exact gearing for a target HS (80% +/-5% throttle) this switching is brief so a higher freq. is used since losses are less w/constant RPM.
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Old 04-14-2015, 04:21 PM   #9668
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I have my Egov geared and set for exactly that(80% +/-5%)

N=2950RPM(75%) 1=3150(80%) 2=3350(85%)
My setup 4300kv 6 pole motor 11T pinion 121T MG @11.1~12.6v
I hope that helps make sense of PWM Andy.
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Old 04-15-2015, 07:45 AM   #9669
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Hey Guys,

Managed to get out the other day for another 4 packs and had a good session. I managed to record them this time on my old camera, but then I realised I need my laptop as the interface to upload it to YT!! So, been spending spare time since trying to bring my laptop back to life.

Have to say I was quite happy with how I was throwing it about. Got a little brave on the last pack. I normally hit TH about 2ft off the ground and auto it down, but I hit the tail on landing The boom twisted slightly from the impact, but hopefully, no damage done. I'll check later, but if anything it will only be a couple of teeth on the crown gears and TT.

Most of all, I'm happy I finally fixed my laptop. Easier to be online and upload stuff again, really bugs me doing it all on an iPhone!! For those that understand, I just had to startup in safe mode to access the 1 and only corrupted admin account, back up my data to a portable hard drive, then re-install windows from a hidden partition on the static hard drive! And, after 30GB of backups and 93 windows updates later, I'm almost there!! It's now running quicker and cooler than it has for a long time (inlets for the fan were clogged up with dust, so cleaned them out too!!).

Oh, almost forgot. @sutty - I was looking for a gyro to use for the Spartan offer, and I could only find the Align GP780 gyro I was given with the 450PRO by you guys. So, thought it was only right to offer it back to the owner before I did anything with it.
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Old 04-15-2015, 02:07 PM   #9670
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Not sure I'd learn anything with the 250 Tom. I can't say I hold back with the 550 or that 600 anyway, so I'm not afraid to try new things on those. The problem is, on either, if you can't even approximate to the move, you can't try to learn it. I think the only real way to get completely new moves down, so that you first have an approximation to it first, is to do it in the sim. You probably need a few hundred attempts in there, maybe even more, until you start getting some approximation to it. Problem with that is the sim is sooooo boring. I don't think I've used it for at least two years, and I don't really want to.

As for perfection, ha, that's a laugh, I make at least two big screw ups per pack. I know you were kidding, and it's true that I don't crash often, but I'm so far from perfect it makes me shudder to think. It's true, that the better I've become, the harder it's become to add more interesting and difficult things into my routine, but perfect, good grief.

For example, I do single tail rotation piro flips reasonably well now. I want to do double ones though. Those are the ones that really look the business, but I cannot even conceive of how they're done. I can't practice them in real life, because it would simply be one nearly crash after another, throughout the entire pack. Try, nearly crash, rescue, try again, nearly crash, try again, ad infinitum, without ever gaining any further understanding.

I read, that the secret to proper piro flips, mutiple tail rotations per flip, is understanding, and being able to perform, conituous piro flight. I can now do passes, back and forth, circuits, upright and inverted, half loops, and some other things at will. Two years on, that's quite pleasing, like being able to do some impressively low piro hovers, but multi tail rotation piro flips, still not any nearer at all.

Sim sim sim. Only way, I think, grrrr. It's meant to be fun, but that striving for continuous improvement, that you mentioned, sometimes seems to detract from simply enjoying yourself.

As for the op Tom, get the flying in, and a speedy recovery. Hope it all goes well.

Chad, I'm no nearer mate, but thanks for the posts. I've read lots on it too in the past, and I've even read that the formula you posted, and have also read that it is more or less made up. There is so much to be known about with these systems that without being an ESC or motor manufacturer, or making it the focus of your entire hobby, you might as well forget about it. I fly my 4 packs that I have, for every machine that I have, for between 4:40 and 5 minutes, and they all come back cold enough, and they all come back at between 3.75 and 3.8V per cell, and I've left all the complicated settings pretty much at default. I think on my recent ESC purchase the default rate was surprisingly high, and I thought I don't need super power anyway, so I thought I might as well lower it, one setting down from default and keep the ESC cooler to extend its life. It quite literally comes down cold now, which has to be better on it, but really it wasn't hot to begin with. Didn't notice a change with the motor temp, but I was only doing it by touch anyway, even though I have a IR thermometer. Some use buying that, lol.

If I had an issue, I'd research more, but I don't. I guess you did, and have sorted it. Too short flight time, and too hot. Now you've got it cracked, so can't argue with results.

Fair play Denis, good of you to check, but I happen to know the origins of the gyro, and I think I can say with some degree of certainty that the former owner is more than happy for it to be donated/exchanged for a Spartan VX1e. It went to a good cause in the first place, and if it's part exchanged for a VX1e then I think it's fair to say he'll agree that just makes things even better. In fact, I've rarely been more certain of anything.

Glad to hear you got out for a few packs. I'd been worrying that your fancy charging station wasn't really having the chance to stretch its legs. Pleased to hear that it went well too, bar a minor mishap at the end. I always try to land on the nose now, tail high, but I'm starting to get so cocky at that that I'm likely to take my main blades out instead, lol.

Cheers

Sutty
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Old 04-15-2015, 03:05 PM   #9671
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Im no expert on the subject but have found in my experience that calcing gearing for 80% target HS along with the PWM formula has been the key to efficiency on 3 different motors in the same bird. I agree 100% with you. If it works well enough fly it. I do strive for perfection though so I fiddle with stuff, but my heli is perfect so flying is really fun and fidding is done!
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Old 04-20-2015, 07:39 PM   #9672
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Grr. Stuffed my 550 main blades today. Really poor effort on my part. Saw a thread about an easy way to get your CoG perfect on your heli. I'd always held it by the head, loose around the grips, and looked in the mirror to see if it was hanging level. Anyway, turns out there's a much better way.

So, I follow the new way, and end up moving my battery forward to correct. It was tight on the wire, but I thought it would be okay. Turns out it wasn't. The strain on the coupler meant that it slowly backed out and I lost power mid flight. Luckily I was low doing upright piro circuits, just to basically see if I could spot any improvement, in accurate piro comp, and general piro stability, as a result of the improved CoG. Pretty sure it was improved, and was just contemplating if I was sure it was better as the power went out and I lost control.

Quite level, and it more or less autoed in on its own, but tipped on landing, and took out one mainblade. Just rotated it enough to smash it into the grip and smash the blade at the root, otherwise it would have been fine. Other blade is okay, but I doubt I have a matched one.

Half assed, yeah it's tight, but it'll be fine. Damned good job I wasn't a lot higher or it would have cost me a lot more than one set of main blades.

I think it was better though, so I will adjust the cable run, so that I can move the pack forward, get the CoG perfect, and still have slack in the cable, and see how it pans out in terms of an improvement.

Live and learn.

Cheers

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Old 04-21-2015, 07:04 AM   #9673
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Hi guys,

I've been very quiet over here for a long time..Summer has ended, autumn flew by and now it has suddenly gotten very cold and wet. not much flying happening, So I decided to start a big Winter project..
I am not sure if this s the best place to put up a project on building a Scale 600 size heli, but at least you guys might appreciate the change of pace etc.

I have decided after 5 or so years of thrashing heli's around the sky, and attending many heli events, that I am just never going to get as good as the young guys in 3D heli flying !!

MY progress semms ot be very slow, and the crash rate high.. so I have decided I was probably never meant ot be a 3D pilot. I can fly scale .. I think !

I have two 600 heli's , highly modified and comprised of many different parts from many model, but basically a 600e, FBL head and shortened main shaft. I have two identical helis, and fly with
IKON FBL and still run my trusty DX7. I like the FBL head, and with the anti-rotation ELE links, it is a clean looking head...albeit fairly low to the body. ..

I then started looking for a fuselage that suited the boom tail and 600 mechanics that is loosely based on hk600 frame and align mechanicals.

I ended up choosing the FUNKEY 50 size Bell 206 JetRanger for a few reasons..
1. it suits my mechanics, and boom config, whith very little mods, so a good first project.
2. I hapen to like the looks of the Bell 206 Jetranger, and in fact I remember when I was young at boarding school in the 70's , seeing a jetRanger ferrying high-class execs form the top of sydney building to the airport. It was owned by ANSETT airlines, which was an iconic and highly successful airline at the time. It was the only Executive Heli flying around Sydney at the time.

I have attached as a starting point, the three components on my quest..

1. I have chosen one of my 600e FBL helis' to be converted
2. I have the Unpainted Fuse kit, ready to go,
3. I have located many photos of the final ANSETT BELL 206B in all her finery, and have begun the project.

I am currently up to the painting fuse stage, having fitted the mechanicals in part tot he fuse.
The mechanical required a lot of re-arrangements of the servos, to get the width right to allow the mechanics to slide back enough to get the tail unit onto the tail-tube. The fuse does not come apart in the tail section. I then test flew the new frame, but it did not work.. a crash resulted, so it is back to the drawing board to re-design the cyclic LINKS and servo placement. I have ordered new cyclic servos, (SAVOX 1251 LOW PROFILE HIGH SPEED DIGITAL) as this seems to be the only way to get the servos in-board of the frame, so it will fit in the fuse well enough.

The heli photo is an old one form 6 months ago, but the mechanics etc are still the same. My camera and sd card reader are not at one right now, so I cannot post new Pics...

well, let me know what you think, and I will continue the post in a new build thread. I am sure nobody has ever built this particular ANSETT Bell 206 scale heli, and I am looking foreward to finishing the project.
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Old 04-21-2015, 09:19 AM   #9674
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Chris, enjoy your build. That is the same fuselage that I used for my scale 600 build, also used HK 600 mechanics. It's been flying with the stock flybar head, and I'm now just in the process of switching it to flybarless, also using an Ikon FBL controller, with RJX head.

Two photos of the model, and one of me with the real thing on a trip to the Canadian Rockies.
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Old 04-21-2015, 10:49 PM   #9675
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Dave! Looking dapper!

You'll be glad to hear I've started on the f330 with the cc3d.
So far, setup is a breeze! Seriously, their ground station is by far the best I have tried. The wizard is in plain English, and literally walked you thru the set up. I had no problems what so ever.

I've had only the maiden flight, but it was uneventful.

Set this up on my old dx6i for the grandkids. I'm going to have to bind it to my x7 though so I can have some knobs to tune in the gains with.

I liked how it flew, it's not too far off. For a simple board I like it! Far better than KK, though I haven't flown the new KK yet.

was supposed to get my thumb surgery tomorrow, but Boulder Surgery Center screwed up on some testing I didn't get done,,, and then tried.to blame me!
Afraid I went off on them. Told them that if this was how they represent themselves to customers, it did little to inspire confidence in their abilities.
Considering I'm having a nasty operation on my right thumb, of all things, I'm wanting a top rate surgery center to perform it, not some damn chop shop!!!
We got into it, so I told them I had zero confidence in them, period, and to cancel the surgery.
Next up, called the surgeon's office and explained what transpired. They informed me they would raise.some serious hell with them and get it all straightened out.
We'll see.
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Old 04-22-2015, 11:46 AM   #9676
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Yes indeed Dave, I don't know who was looking finer, you or the Bell.

Good to hear from you Chris. Never been taken by scale, but I understand the logic, and what others might be interested in, from both the flight and modelling perspective. Ever since even before being a teenager, all I ever wanted to do was to be able to fly planks, confidently, in every which way possible, whilst secretly harbouring a desire to fly a helicopter, which I thought was a near impossible task. Turned out, even with all that plank experience behind me, when I finally got round to trying helis, when I was in my mid forties, it was still as hard as hell, and it has taken a 'lot' of flights and crashes to get to be able to do some sort of rather iffy 3D, with a degree of confidence, and I have the luxury of just going out the back door to fly, so I do understand why you might want to stick with scale flight, especially if most of your crashes were dumb thumb.

Seeing the picture of Dave's completed build, it certainly looks like it will be the business, so good luck with the on going build. I look forward to hearing about your progress.

As for me, I won one today. The stupid unplugged battery incident of the other day was only one of the main blades that was taken out, as my first glance had indicated. I just dug through my pile of singles, two of them, lol, and I found one in perfect condition that matched well enough. CoG was only 1/4" different. Lead lag weighting was identical, and the weight only needed 9" of 1" wide thin sellotape for perfect balance.

Of course I'd already ordered new blades, after having confirmed that was all I needed, so now having got these flying well, I'll have a nice new set sitting there waiting for the next 'incident'.

Cheers

Sutty

Just been for a test flight, and it was perfect.
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Old Yesterday, 12:14 AM   #9677
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Went to my buddy Grant's today with the Hexa. Got one flight in before the storm rolled in.
Ran the Hexa down the road a mile and back. Would have gone farther but it was starting to get pretty choppy.
Damn, this thing is flying perfect! Impresses the hell out of me!
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Old Today, 12:15 PM   #9678
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Wow, that's getting out there Tom. Glad it all went well.

I've one or two things to report. Vortex soft start is awesome, and auto bailout works as described, if you don't have a brain freeze.

Anyone ever see those tests where people cope really well with a certain limited number of multiple tasks, but when you add just one more, they don't just get a little bit worse, they suffer a total overload, followed by complete meltdown. This is precisely what happened to me.

Went to about 200 feet, hit hold, which is now set-up for auto bail out mode in the Vortex, and started to practice the 'feel' for collective on the way down, with it all under control. Then, woah, that's all happening too fast, and thinking about cyclic, tail, collective, descent rate, will have to hit that switch soon, but I couldn't even find it. Worse than that, as I replay it in my mind, it wasn't just that I couldn't find it, I couldn't even think were it was, or find any spare capacity to even move my fingers. Very odd feeling.

Sadly, the auto was okay, and didn't need bailout, and I set it down, but at the very second I'd set it down, level, and not even hard, my brain caught up, and I hit the auto bailout switch, and aborted the auto, at which point it proceeded to spool up again, quickly of course, slowly wobble over, and whack whack whack, an under power chicken dance, instead of a simple stop on the ground. Even if it had tipped over at the end of the auto, if I hadn't powered up again it would have been absolutely fine.

So, the one that I won, in making a pair of blades from two singles, is now lost, because I cost myself that set yesterday. Not going to practice them any more, I mean what's the point, it will cost me more in mistakes, just to learn something that with my set-ups can hardly ever save me. Meaning, if I lose power, I lose everything anyway, because I don't run receiver packs.

On the 250, I had a wobbly ball on the grip, so decided to buy a new DFC version. Didn't notice that it came with a new mainshaft, which I left in the box, and discovered it later. On trying to do the set-up, I thought, damn, this main shaft is way too long, and the hole is in the wrong position, I'll have to order some DFC main shafts.

Anyway, placed the order, and then went into the workshop to cut down a new 'old style' one. Decided to cut it down second, as I thought drilling the hole might be tough, and no point wasting effort on cutting it, if I can't drill a new hole. Managed to drill it though, right through the middle, and straight, with a tiny little drill. Very pleased with the outcome, so followed up with cutting it down.

Fitted it, re-did the MicroBeast set-up, and now test flown, and it is lovely. Really much better than it was the other day. So nice I might even get some new packs for it now, as only one of my packs now has any umph. The one I recorded the other day.

Doesn't help that I'd left them all fully charged since the last time I flew the 250, sometime last summer.
__________________
Regards, Sutty
BeltEXI, mCX, mSR, 4G3, FBL Trex250SE B, FBL Trex450Pro B,
FBL Trex550e VX1 Pro, FBL Trex600ESP VX1e, Parkzone P51D, QRX350Pro
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