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Main Forum - Helicopter Talk R/C Helicopters and the people who fly them. VENDOR TOPICS DO NOT GO HERE. Full Scale Heli threads go in OT please |
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#1 (permalink) |
Registered Users
Join Date: Jan 2009
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![]() Hi, I have a t-rex 450 se v2 and 600 ESP and keep reading about people converting them to a flybarless heads with great results and I'm curios why the manufactures dont just do away with flybars than? What pros and cons are their for flybarless and flybar heads. I've also read about flybarless electronic stabilization systems do you need them and what do they do.
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#2 (permalink) | |
HF Support
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![]() Quote:
The biggest advantage to flybarless is reduction of drag from the elimination of the flybar and paddles, providing more power.
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Alan (just call me "Bum"; no need to be so formal) HeliFreak Support Protos Max Evo 700 (Brain 2), Protos Max V2 770 (iKON 2), Synergy 516 (Brain 2), Oxy 2 (Falcon 12) Graupner MZ-32 Experience is something you gain only after you need it. I wouldn't mind social media so much if it didn't involve people. |
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#3 (permalink) |
Registered Users
Join Date: Dec 2008
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![]() Flybars add stabilization to your helicopter.
Without a flybar, an RC helicopter will become very unstable. They must be included in order for the helicopter to be stable. Flybarless helicopters use electronic stabilization systems to simulate the effects of a flybar. The benefit of flybarless is a lighter helicopter supposedly with more power due to less drag/weight. Less parts to fix in a crash, and the programmability. The con would be that it is a lot to learn. Set up takes some tweaking to get it how you want it. The benefit of flybar is it's simplicity. Bolt it on and you're good to go. Also it won't cost you several hundred dollars for a stabi system. The cons would be that it has limitations to programming and how your helicopter will respond to your input, whereas electronic flybarless stabilization systems such as the V-Bar are completely programmable. Also, when you crash you generally have to repair/replace the flybar and paddles. |
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#4 (permalink) |
Registered Users
Join Date: Feb 2009
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![]() How are full scale helicopters stable without flybars?
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#5 (permalink) |
NERD
Join Date: Apr 2008
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![]() Mass.
Comparitively speaking our RC helis have little of it. The flybar adds gyroscopic mass. Having flown electronic flybarless for the first time today, all I can say is wow. ![]() Some full sized helis do have flybars with weights on the end, mostly older ones like the UH-1B. You may not recognize them because they do not have paddles. ![]() Also there are a lot of full scale helis with electronic stabilization systems. In addition, the Skookum learning curve is pretty short. The default setting will usually get you going well. Once you get the trims set and the directions right you are good to go.
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Norman Fun times and good friends. |
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#6 (permalink) |
Registered Users
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![]() Full scale helis have a lot more mass in the blades and therefore more gyroscopic effect, and therefore more stabilization. Same applies for RC models. You CAN just remove the flybar without an electronic stabilization system. Do it on a 450, and you're going to crash. Do it on a 90, and maybe not. Or so I've heard anyway.
Edit: Dangit!! Ya beat me to it! ![]() |
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#7 (permalink) | |
NERD
Join Date: Apr 2008
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![]() Quote:
The bigger scale guys do it sometimes without electronics with weights in the blade tips.
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Norman Fun times and good friends. |
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#8 (permalink) |
Registered Users
Join Date: May 2008
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![]() Popsicle's reply isn't quite on the mark - the flybar doesn't provide any stability whatsoever, what it does is to reduce the response rate of the rotor disc to the pilots inputs.
Look at this analogy - if you place a 6-foot long pole vertically on the palm of your hand, you can balance it upright quite easily. this is because it "falls over" more slowly than you are able to respond to, or "chase", its movement. Now try the same thing with a 6-inch pencil - it "falls over" much more quickly - too quickly for your human responses, and thus you can't keep it balanced. This size analogy holds true for rotors directly connected to the swash - the smaller the rotor, the quicker it responds, until a point is reached where it is too quick for the human pilot to respond to or "chase". The flybar system is actually a method of controlling the main rotor via a slower responding system which has a "chase rate" slow enough for the human pilot to anticipate - typically half a second or so, which can be changed, for example, by adding weights to the flybar to reduce the response or chase rate, (which incidentally has no effect on the stability of the system, but simply makes it easier for the pilot to follow), or by shortening the flybar or using bigger or lighter paddles to increase or speed up the chase rate Hope this helps you to understand what the flybar does. |
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#9 (permalink) |
Registered Users
Join Date: Feb 2009
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![]() doesn't the flybar also provide leverage to assist moving the blade grips in their pitch range?
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#10 (permalink) |
Registered Users
Join Date: Jan 2007
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![]() Flybarless helis' servos burn about 50% more power... so I'd say yes?
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1 - Diabolo 1 stuffed with, well, see below 2 - Diabolo 2 stuffed with testosterone, jittery sweat, and rippling flanks |
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#11 (permalink) |
Registered Users
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![]() I thought it was a place where insects go to have a drink.
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Fury55 NIB Furion6 CGY750 fbl helicopter-Frenzy CGY750 fbl nitro-Frenzy fbl NOBAR90 and a clone450NOBAR Burning Nitro and Electrons simultaneously |
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#12 (permalink) | |
Registered Users
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#13 (permalink) |
HF Support
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![]() Or zippers.
__________________
Alan (just call me "Bum"; no need to be so formal) HeliFreak Support Protos Max Evo 700 (Brain 2), Protos Max V2 770 (iKON 2), Synergy 516 (Brain 2), Oxy 2 (Falcon 12) Graupner MZ-32 Experience is something you gain only after you need it. I wouldn't mind social media so much if it didn't involve people. |
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#14 (permalink) |
Registered Users
Join Date: Jan 2009
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![]() I thought they also made the blades pitch for movement
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Trex 500 Esp, CC Ice 75, Hyperion 1600kv, Gp750, Ds510's , Ar6200, DS650 tail mod. DX7 ![]() Hyperion 250w 6s Charger, Hyperion G3 Battaries ParkZone T-28 w/ custom flaps+retracts, Ar7000 6s RCLander F-16 - To scared to maiden |
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#15 (permalink) |
Registered Users
Join Date: Dec 2008
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![]() Since I'm trying to put it simply for someone who doesn't understand what a flybar does; a flybar is essentially a stabilizer.
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#16 (permalink) | |
Registered Users
Join Date: Mar 2007
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![]() Quote:
So the heavier the paddles, the less they want to change. The more aerodynamic the paddle (wider?), the more washout inputs to paddle pitch will make that change in disk angle faster. The longer the flybar, the more leverage the paddle has to effect those pitch (paddle pitch)changes. All of this gets mixed with the direct from swash to grips by way of the mixing lever. |
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#17 (permalink) |
Registered Users
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![]() They keep watering holes from going dry...
![]() Oops, that's a Barfly.
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Jeff I do not have to be politically correct. I am not a politician. K-50 / 500ESP /450SEv2 /H200SD / mCX / RF4.5 / 10C 2.4GHz |
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#18 (permalink) | |
Registered Users
Join Date: Sep 2008
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![]() Quote:
Why??..... Relative Wind! When a heli moves in any direction the wind and thus air mass encountered by the blade advancing into the wind (relative wind is created by its motion through still air) has more lift than the blade retreating from the wind. I could get much more detailed but your flybar has paddles so that it can achieve directional flight at any appreciable speed. When the flybar encounters relative wind it acts to reduce the pitch of the advancing blade and decrease the pitch of the retreating blade. Flybarless systems monitor motion of the vertical axis and absent control inputs take actions to keep that axis in a constant orientation... think heading lock gyro for your rotor head but in two axis's instead of one. Thx Igor. Dr. Evil
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Michael Gregory - AMA# L917710 I love the smell of Jet Fuel in the morning... |
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#19 (permalink) |
Registered Users
Join Date: Sep 2008
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![]() TYPO::: Should read "When the flybar encounters relative wind it acts to reduce the pitch of the advancing blade and INCREASE the pitch of the retreating blade.
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Michael Gregory - AMA# L917710 I love the smell of Jet Fuel in the morning... |
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#20 (permalink) | |
Registered Users
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![]() Quote:
About 5-8% actually, I have tested exact setups on a flybar machine and a flybarless machine, same servos etc. ![]()
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...Once upon a time there were Nitros, flybars & frequency pins...Shawn ![]() Mikado Heli Scorpion Motors Western Robotics RC, Youth Generation Electronics |
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