Fun, Learning, Friendship and Mutual Respect START  HERE


Unregistered
Go Back   HeliFreak > R/C Helicopters > Newbies: Tips and Information


Newbies: Tips and Information Section of HF, specifically for Passing along info to newcomers to the hobby. Setup, tweaking, orientation practice, etc.


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-30-2010, 02:38 PM   #21 (permalink)
Registered Users
 

Join Date: May 2007
Default

PU gel is polyurethane that's quite soft and naturally sticky. It's a substitute for mounting foam.

The Spartan Quark has next to no mass compared to the GP780, so identical mounting won't necessarily have the same effect.

My batteries are Turnigy 3300mAh of identical age and cycles.

I now have a Quark.

I initially mounted it on the tail boom using PU gel, Spartan DS760 plate, thin Spartan tape, then gyro. From the start there was none of the wagging I got with the GP780 in that location, but still some twitching, albeit a bit wobbly.

I then mounted it on the bottom plate using 3mm Spartan tape, the Quark plate, 1mm tape then the gyro. Better, but still had a twitch.

Then it dawned on me. Not only did the tail twitch, but I've noticed the odd twitch of the whole airframe, most noticable on the landing gear. I presume this is due to cyclic twitching. So, most likely, the tail twitch is a servo glitch, followed by the gyro trying to correct. Thus, once gyro vibration issues are dealt with, the remaining problem may well be twitching of servos caused either by the servos themselves or the supply from the ESC.

Experiment time... I rewired the ESC to Rx cabling to use a shorter route to provide enough length to refit the ferrite I'd previously removed. Previously the cablerun had been with the cyclic servos on the right side of the heli. ESC is now wired on the left.

Result... Rock steady hover even in very gusty wind. No twitching of the tail OR the cyclic servos. I've not gone back to try this with the GP780, but I suspect it would eliminate the remaining twitch that demonstrated.

Steve
__________________
Trex 450SEv2/HS65-MGs cyclic/Spartan Quark/DS520 tail
Trex 450ProV2 DFC/CGY750 FBL/DS410s cyclic/DS520 tail
Trex 500ESP DFC/CGY750 FBL/YGE-120LV ESC/DS510s cyclic/DS650 tail
Blackout 330/OpenPilot Revo with FatShark 600mW VTX, Futaba 8FG 2.4GHz
Steve Evans is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 05-01-2010, 06:47 PM   #22 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 637
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Default

I use a kyosho gel for my rx and satellite. I did not use it on my gyro, I have read that the gel can cause the gyro to wobble around too much and kind of send fake signals to your equipment. Just a thought.

Okay didn't read every thing. What kind of PU do you have? Who makes it?
__________________
Mini titan, MSR, Trex600, art tech 300 400class, Mantis40 I believe(not complete). walkera38, dx7se. My picture in my avatar is a video I have of flooding here in IA, Just beyond the white waves is a black spot. A MASSIVE Catfish! When I figure the rest I will post it. Bergen RC ROCKS!!!

Last edited by fuelfan; 05-01-2010 at 06:51 PM.. Reason: added
fuelfan is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-01-2010, 06:54 PM   #23 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 637
 

Join Date: Jun 2009
Default

I guess I would be more interested if moving the wires worked, or the ferrite magnet? Please?
__________________
Mini titan, MSR, Trex600, art tech 300 400class, Mantis40 I believe(not complete). walkera38, dx7se. My picture in my avatar is a video I have of flooding here in IA, Just beyond the white waves is a black spot. A MASSIVE Catfish! When I figure the rest I will post it. Bergen RC ROCKS!!!
fuelfan is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-21-2010, 10:58 PM   #24 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Mar 2010
Default

Airjawed, just for clarification.

I've read in the manuals (I think for my KDS800 and even for my Flymentor) that if using a quality servo, one should set the delay to zero.

I would like to follow your inputs as they make more sense (and are written in english).
OB1 Kenobi is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-24-2010, 11:32 PM   #25 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 5,357
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Mar 2008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OB1 Kenobi View Post
Airjawed, just for clarification.

I've read in the manuals (I think for my KDS800 and even for my Flymentor) that if using a quality servo, one should set the delay to zero.

I would like to follow your inputs as they make more sense (and are written in english).
I think the more accurate thing that should be written in the manual should be that with a faster gyro your delay setting will be closer to 0.

Both the physical speed of the gyro and the reactivity of the tail will determine how close to 0 the delay can be set. The reactivity of the tail is dependent on the tail rpm and tail blade aerodynamics.

The delay setting deals with the time difference between the gyro asking for the tail to stop and the tail actually stopping. There will always be a time delay...that is why I think the manual should actually say close to zero rather than zero.

Now there is another setting on some gyros that deal with how quickly the gyro goes from telling the tail to spin to telling the tail to stop. The rate at which the gyro asks for the stop should not be faster than what the tail system can deliver. If it is then you will always see a bounce.

Since different gyros have different settings I think understanding some of the basics is a good thing. Then after that you have to look at the specific manual to see how to set it best.

My advice would be that when setting these parameters you start with gain on the low side, delay on the high side and stop characteristic on the quickest setting. Then while doing climb outs adjust the gain higher and higher until the tail does not push to the side and you do not get any wag or oscillation. Then do piros and watch how it stops. Decrease the delay until you get the least amount of wag or oscillation. Then increase the stop time slowly until the tail makes a nice stop from a piro every time(no bounce back or back tracking). This is my advice if you have those three settings.

If you only have delay and gain then do as in first post.

Let me know how you make out.
__________________
Trex 450 Pro 3xDS410M + MKS8910A+, Align FBL head w/Microbeast, CC 45 [email protected] 3400rpm(max timing, outrunner mode), Scorpion 2221-8 on 14t, Edge FBL main and tail, CF boom, CC BEC @ 6V
airjawed is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-30-2010, 08:12 AM   #26 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Mar 2010
Default

Thanks Airjawed.

I started to experiment on the delay pot of my 450 (Flasher Pro, DS480, KDS800) and have it around 9 o'clock now. On my FP (Esky HBFP, HK401B, Ino-Lab 202HB) I set the delay to around 12 o'clock. I am so far happy with the settings. The tails stop with little or no bounceback. But I am a newbie so what is good enough for me may not be for others.

What is most important and am thankful for is that I now have a pretty good idea of what the delay pot should do in real life.

On stop characteristic, the FM has a setting like HH Angle Range which should be the same. But I took mine out from the King II due to a wagging issue and installed a Turnigy302 (with a rather twitchy Henge MD922) which I understand is Telebee-type. Apart from DS and REV, the only adjustable pots are ATV and Gain so it should be simpler for this newbie.

While on the telebee-type subject, how would one adjust the delay for these types? Or otherwise find the happy medium between mushy stops and bouncy stops?
OB1 Kenobi is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-30-2010, 06:01 PM   #27 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 5,357
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Mar 2008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OB1 Kenobi View Post
Thanks Airjawed.

I started to experiment on the delay pot of my 450 (Flasher Pro, DS480, KDS800) and have it around 9 o'clock now. On my FP (Esky HBFP, HK401B, Ino-Lab 202HB) I set the delay to around 12 o'clock. I am so far happy with the settings. The tails stop with little or no bounceback. But I am a newbie so what is good enough for me may not be for others.

What is most important and am thankful for is that I now have a pretty good idea of what the delay pot should do in real life.

On stop characteristic, the FM has a setting like HH Angle Range which should be the same. But I took mine out from the King II due to a wagging issue and installed a Turnigy302 (with a rather twitchy Henge MD922) which I understand is Telebee-type. Apart from DS and REV, the only adjustable pots are ATV and Gain so it should be simpler for this newbie.

While on the telebee-type subject, how would one adjust the delay for these types? Or otherwise find the happy medium between mushy stops and bouncy stops?
Well..you don't technically have delay on those gyros. I haven't flown one of those types of gyros in a very long time(since my first heli probably).

The kind that does not have any ATV setting on it I would only set it up and accept how it flies for the most part.

If you have ATV/limits settings then you can get a little bit of adjustment out of it. You can get a faster servo(less delay) by going further from center on the servo arm. You can also make your servo slower(more delay) by going further in on the servo arm. I wouldn't go too far with this since you want to still use the full range of pitch and you also don't want to use too little atv...either way is not good. Being in the 100% spot is good for ATV/limits in most gyros.

The above is just for understanding....I wouldn't really mess with things outside of the range of normal settings.
__________________
Trex 450 Pro 3xDS410M + MKS8910A+, Align FBL head w/Microbeast, CC 45 [email protected] 3400rpm(max timing, outrunner mode), Scorpion 2221-8 on 14t, Edge FBL main and tail, CF boom, CC BEC @ 6V
airjawed is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-04-2010, 01:52 PM   #28 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Mar 2010
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by airjawed View Post

Being in the 100% spot is good for ATV/limits in most gyros.

The above is just for understanding....I wouldn't really mess with things outside of the range of normal settings.
I did not know this before, or maybe I have read it in passing somewhere but did not understand it. Now, I tried doing it what I think you are saying. I believe you are right.

On my King2 (Turnigy 320, now Ino-Lab 220HB*), I maxed the ATV and used the hole in the horn nearest to center. Servo moves almost full-range of motion without binding. I figured this should be alright as the servo claims to be hi-torque. I used the hole in the tail control lever (it has two holes) farther from the pivot point. Control, including stops, is MUCH better. And the piro rate is faster, I had to set travel adjust to 85 just so I can follow the nose. But it stops when I let go of the stick. Thanks.

*Henceforth, I will stay away from the Henge MD922 or the D922 from HK which looks exactly like it. Not content with occasional twitch, it now dances like the oracle in Spartan300. I tried it on the Turnigy servo tester to isolate the problem and true enough it is now officially epileptic (no offense). It even turns the three blue lights on the tester into running lights.
OB1 Kenobi is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-05-2010, 02:47 PM   #29 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 218
 

Join Date: Jan 2008
Default

I have nothing constructive to add but I followed the set up instructions and no more bounce plus I got some more gain.

Thanks!
fr4nk1yn is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-05-2010, 05:40 PM   #30 (permalink)
Registered Users
 

Join Date: May 2007
Default

Having mucked around with delay on the GP780 to positive effect I'm feeling a bit left out now as I'd like to fiddle with the equivalent on the Spartan Quarks that my helis now boast, but alas as yet no software is available to configure them.

Steve
__________________
Trex 450SEv2/HS65-MGs cyclic/Spartan Quark/DS520 tail
Trex 450ProV2 DFC/CGY750 FBL/DS410s cyclic/DS520 tail
Trex 500ESP DFC/CGY750 FBL/YGE-120LV ESC/DS510s cyclic/DS650 tail
Blackout 330/OpenPilot Revo with FatShark 600mW VTX, Futaba 8FG 2.4GHz
Steve Evans is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-05-2010, 08:36 PM   #31 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 5,357
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Mar 2008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fr4nk1yn View Post
I have nothing constructive to add but I followed the set up instructions and no more bounce plus I got some more gain.

Thanks!
Great to see some positive feedback! Thanks for posting your success.....what gyro/s are you using?
__________________
Trex 450 Pro 3xDS410M + MKS8910A+, Align FBL head w/Microbeast, CC 45 [email protected] 3400rpm(max timing, outrunner mode), Scorpion 2221-8 on 14t, Edge FBL main and tail, CF boom, CC BEC @ 6V
airjawed is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-12-2010, 12:28 PM   #32 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 12,652
 

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Georgia
Default

Yeah but where do you set your gain? you have to set it to something so where do you set it?
and you said turn the delay all the way up? you mean to 100

my tail is wagging when I punch the throttle then it wants to like ossilate back and forth really bad/fast
__________________
Goblin 500,XLP 550,OMP M2,600N,600E,lots of Planes Powered by NX10 AMA 34 yrs.


Epoweredrc is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-12-2010, 09:01 PM   #33 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 5,357
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Mar 2008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epoweredrc View Post
Yeah but where do you set your gain? you have to set it to something so where do you set it?
and you said turn the delay all the way up? you mean to 100

my tail is wagging when I punch the throttle then it wants to like ossilate back and forth really bad/fast
What gyro? Most gyros will use the radio to set it if the gain lead is plugged in. If the gain lead is not plugged in then the gyro itself may have a dial which is used.

It sounds like your gain is too high. This thread is mostly for delay related issues. There are many gain threads out there. Take a look at the finless bob videos on setup. The gyro 401 setup video should be plenty for you.
__________________
Trex 450 Pro 3xDS410M + MKS8910A+, Align FBL head w/Microbeast, CC 45 [email protected] 3400rpm(max timing, outrunner mode), Scorpion 2221-8 on 14t, Edge FBL main and tail, CF boom, CC BEC @ 6V
airjawed is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-12-2010, 09:30 PM   #34 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 12,652
 

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Georgia
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by airjawed View Post
What gyro? Most gyros will use the radio to set it if the gain lead is plugged in. If the gain lead is not plugged in then the gyro itself may have a dial which is used.

It sounds like your gain is too high. This thread is mostly for delay related issues. There are many gain threads out there. Take a look at the finless bob videos on setup. The gyro 401 setup video should be plenty for you.
I have watched all the videos i know of Finless explains how to set it up but nothing about gain or delay, its a HK401B ( Futaba 401 clone)

just wanted to know what you meant by the very first post you said turn the delay all way up. but where should the gain in the radio be? yes it had a remote wire you use gear or gyro sens menu to set the gain
__________________
Goblin 500,XLP 550,OMP M2,600N,600E,lots of Planes Powered by NX10 AMA 34 yrs.


Epoweredrc is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-12-2010, 10:39 PM   #35 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 5,357
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Mar 2008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epoweredrc View Post
I have watched all the videos i know of Finless explains how to set it up but nothing about gain or delay, its a HK401B ( Futaba 401 clone)

just wanted to know what you meant by the very first post you said turn the delay all way up. but where should the gain in the radio be? yes it had a remote wire you use gear or gyro sens menu to set the gain
In your case I would set the delay to about half of max. Then you slowly increase the gain until you see the tail not give when you do a straight collective punch. Of course you would also not want to see any wag. This is the gain part of the adjustment. You aren't testing the pyro's or stop quality.

The next step is to adjust the delay. The way a piro comes to a stop is the easiest way to adjust delay. So now you would do a piro and see how it stops. Too much delay and the stops are mushy. Too little and the stops are overdone and that is a bounce back. Something that I used back when I had the 401 was to take the difference in speed between the 9254 and your servo. Dial in this into the delay knob.

Otherwise slowly bring the delay closer to zero and keep testing the way the piro stops. The stops should become more and more crisp without any bounce back.

Hope this helps.
__________________
Trex 450 Pro 3xDS410M + MKS8910A+, Align FBL head w/Microbeast, CC 45 [email protected] 3400rpm(max timing, outrunner mode), Scorpion 2221-8 on 14t, Edge FBL main and tail, CF boom, CC BEC @ 6V
airjawed is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-12-2010, 11:18 PM   #36 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 12,652
 

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Georgia
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by airjawed View Post
In your case I would set the delay to about half of max. Then you slowly increase the gain until you see the tail not give when you do a straight collective punch. Of course you would also not want to see any wag. This is the gain part of the adjustment. You aren't testing the pyro's or stop quality.

The next step is to adjust the delay. The way a piro comes to a stop is the easiest way to adjust delay. So now you would do a piro and see how it stops. Too much delay and the stops are mushy. Too little and the stops are overdone and that is a bounce back. Something that I used back when I had the 401 was to take the difference in speed between the 9254 and your servo. Dial in this into the delay knob.

Otherwise slowly bring the delay closer to zero and keep testing the way the piro stops. The stops should become more and more crisp without any bounce back.

Hope this helps.
Thanks I will give it a try tommorrow. my servo is .08 sec/60 @ 4.8V it says the 9254 is Speed: 0.06 sec/60 degrees @ 4.8V
So leave the gain at 72% to start or should it be lower you think?
__________________
Goblin 500,XLP 550,OMP M2,600N,600E,lots of Planes Powered by NX10 AMA 34 yrs.


Epoweredrc is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-13-2010, 07:33 PM   #37 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 5,357
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Mar 2008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epoweredrc View Post
Thanks I will give it a try tommorrow. my servo is .08 sec/60 @ 4.8V it says the 9254 is Speed: 0.06 sec/60 degrees @ 4.8V
So leave the gain at 72% to start or should it be lower you think?
The gain has to adjusted by yourself. You can not copy someone's number. This is because people have different headspeeds, motors, batteries etc. And also because the length of the servo arm varies as well.

So if you'd like set the delay to 0.02 since that is the speed difference. And then try something like 72 if that is what some others are using. If you feel uncomfortable doing this and flying then find someone who is good at it.
__________________
Trex 450 Pro 3xDS410M + MKS8910A+, Align FBL head w/Microbeast, CC 45 [email protected] 3400rpm(max timing, outrunner mode), Scorpion 2221-8 on 14t, Edge FBL main and tail, CF boom, CC BEC @ 6V
airjawed is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-26-2010, 11:09 AM   #38 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 424
 

Join Date: Oct 2007
Default

I'm glad I read this. Thanks, airjawed for sharing. For sometime now, I had been wondering why I see the tail would do some bounce then sometimes it disappears. I had been messing with the limit and the delay but never fully understood what affected it. Now, I know.

Thanks again.
Rico.
ricoalonso is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-26-2010, 07:53 PM   #39 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 5,357
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Mar 2008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricoalonso View Post
I'm glad I read this. Thanks, airjawed for sharing. For sometime now, I had been wondering why I see the tail would do some bounce then sometimes it disappears. I had been messing with the limit and the delay but never fully understood what affected it. Now, I know.

Thanks again.
Rico.
Thanks... let me know how it works out for you. I know that when I had been doing the tail setup I didn't get any info on delay at all. I figure I should share what I learned!!
__________________
Trex 450 Pro 3xDS410M + MKS8910A+, Align FBL head w/Microbeast, CC 45 [email protected] 3400rpm(max timing, outrunner mode), Scorpion 2221-8 on 14t, Edge FBL main and tail, CF boom, CC BEC @ 6V
airjawed is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-02-2010, 03:07 AM   #40 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 1,458
 

Join Date: Apr 2009
Default

If I max out the ATV on the gyro, the tail will bind. Can I use Dual Rate to limit the travel? Would that be different than ATV?

I use Turnigy gyro that has no delay. I try MKS DS470, D922, TP MG90s and Esky servo, but my tail bounces at piro stop. Any suggestion what should I do?
pinguin is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply




Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the HeliFreak forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your REAL and WORKING email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself. Use a real email address or you will not be granted access to the site. Thank you.
Email Address:
Location
Where do you live? ie: Country, State, City or General Geographic Location please.
Name and Lastname
Enter name and last name here. (This information is not shown to the general public. Optional)
Helicopter #1
Enter Helicopter #1 type and equipment.
Helicopter #2
Enter Helicopter #2 type and equipment.
Helicopter #3
Enter Helicopter #3 type and equipment.
Helicopter #4
Enter Helicopter #4 type and equipment.

Log-in


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




Copyright © Website Acquisitions Inc. All rights reserved.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2021 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1