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Old 10-06-2010, 09:56 AM   #1 (permalink)
 

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Default How-To: Tic Tocs

By request...

Prerequisites:
You should at least be comfortable with forward and back flips. You don't really need to know how to fly inverted to learn tic tocs, but it certainly helps. The better you are at controlling any type of inverted flight or hover, the easier tic tocs will be.

Tic tocs are deceptively simple looking. You'll find it's a lot more involved than just yanking the stick back and forth and jamming the throttle up and down. I'll show you how to break it down so you can learn how to control the collective stick seperately from the cyclic.

Starting out:
I'll talk about tail down/nose up tic tocs (aka elevator tic tocs) since most people will probably be most comfortable starting with these since the tail is mostly pointing in a direction you're familiar with.
  • Get to a comfortable altitude upright and tail in.
  • Give a little bit of positive collective
  • Pull back and do a half back flip until you are inverted nose in.
  • Give a little negative collective to catch the heli and hover inverted nose in.
  • Stay there for a moment and get the heli stable
Then go back
  • Give a little bit of negative collective
  • Push forward and go back to upright tail in.
  • Give a little positive collective to catch the heli and hover upright tail in.
  • Pause again. Regain control, then repeat.
While not exactly tic tocs, doing this will help you learn the coordination needed to control the collective independantly of the cyclic. At first try to keep all the collective movements seperate from the cyclic movements. You'll soon learn to apply collective based on what the heli is doing, not what the cyclic stick is doing. This is what we call "collective management"

Keep doing this and your collective management will get better and better. Gradually start catching the heli earlier so that its more at an angle at each half instead of a full half flip.

You can practice other orientations of tic tocs the same way (nose up, down, left or right). Just start upright and always flip or roll the heli towards you to inverted. Then flip or roll back.

--------------

That's the easy part

Now comes control. In order to properly control your tic tocs you also need to learn to apply rudder and other cyclic movements at the same time you are doing the tic tocs themselves. Rudder movements allow you to move the tic toc left or right, and cyclic movements can rotate the heli to keep it on line.

For example:
If you applied some left rudder in a tail down tic toc the heli will start to drift to the left. Right rudder will steer the heli to the right. Also if you use some left or right aileron it will rotate the heli to the left or right which will allow you to keep the heli straight if it starts to rotate in an undesired direction (it will).

If you are doing aileron tic tocs then rudder will still have the same effect, but now you'll need to use elevator up or down to keep the heli straight. What cyclic corrections you'll need during a tic toc will all depend on the heli's orientation. If all that sounds complicated it really is. There are actually 16 different basic orientations you can tic toc in. There's 4 heli orientaions:
  • Skids away (the standard tic toc orientation)
  • Skids towards
  • Skids left
  • Skids right
And each one of these has 4 basic nose orientations (up, down, left, and right) Getting profecient at all of them is likely years of work. Just stick with skids away to start.

Trying to do tic tocs along with rudder corrections, and cyclic corrections all at the same time is extremely overwhelming at first, so when starting out try to just make tiny corrections on one side of the tic toc only at the slight pause in-between going from one side to the next. All I can say is practice this a lot, and eventually you'll learn to integrate the corrections you want in with the tic tocs themselves.

Hope this helps. Work on the basic at first. Then worry about control later. Soon you'll be doing stationary tic tocs right off the deck.

Last edited by RĒzĒ; 10-06-2010 at 02:52 PM..
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Old 10-07-2010, 08:04 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Bravo! And thanks!
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Old 10-07-2010, 08:21 PM   #3 (permalink)
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you always got great directions and detail
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Old 10-21-2010, 08:30 AM   #4 (permalink)
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I hope I'm in the right thread, question about aileron tic tocs. I can do it indefinately on my 450, but I struggle with my 250. What basic principles would I need for my 250 to perform aileron tic tocs with smaller arcs? High HS? How much maximum AUFW can she be? Is it the blades? This seems to be a common thing with all 250s in general. Why does she struggle. My 250 HS is 4500-4400, AUFW 383grams. Do i need a governor? Preety much my 250 is like the 250 model in RF, sloow no power, no climbouts, I just don't understand why!!

Now I am in the process of building a 250 with 5000+ HS. and a little bit lighter. All because of the tic tocs.
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Old 10-21-2010, 12:36 PM   #5 (permalink)
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How long have you been flying?
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Old 10-22-2010, 06:29 AM   #6 (permalink)
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you answer my question with a question. cmon man. I know what you're going to tell me. It's in the disc diameter, but isn't there another way to go around that? I go by the saying there are many different ways to skin a cat. Now I''m just, ah forget it.
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Old 10-22-2010, 06:36 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Hi Pitchp - I think it might be mainly the disk loading. Try getting the 250 as light as possible because even at the ~ "330g" weight its still not great disk loading esp for a micro. I reckon the DL on your 450 would be much better.
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Old 10-22-2010, 08:29 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pitchp View Post
you answer my question with a question. cmon man. I know what you're going to tell me. It's in the disc diameter, but isn't there another way to go around that? I go by the saying there are many different ways to skin a cat. Now I''m just, ah forget it.
If you want a direct answer then it simply sounds like you don't have the proper collective management to pull off "indefinate" tic-tocs on a heli that doesn't make it easy for you. Extra power is not the solution. That's why I ask your experience level.
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Old 10-22-2010, 08:37 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RĒzĒ View Post
If you want a direct answer then it simply sounds like you don't have the proper collective management to pull off "indefinate" tic-tocs on a heli that doesn't make it easy for you. Extra power is not the solution. That's why I ask your experience level.

I'm just a newbie, What would I need to have the right PCM?
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Old 10-22-2010, 08:38 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jay2411 View Post
Hi Pitchp - I think it might be mainly the disk loading. Try getting the 250 as light as possible because even at the ~ "330g" weight its still not great disk loading esp for a micro. I reckon the DL on your 450 would be much better.
So my 250 has to weight below 250grams in order for me to get the climbouts and power that it needs?
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Old 10-22-2010, 09:49 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pitchp View Post
I'm just a newbie, What would I need to have the right PCM?
A larger heli that doesn't have unlimited power will help develop cm skills quickly. Otherwise about another year+ of hard practice

Good collective management skills comes with time and experience. It's something you don't even think about anymore when you have it, but at the same time you do need to work on it if you really want to improve. I know pilots that have flown for many years that still have poor cm skills because they just don't care to practice it.
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Old 10-22-2010, 10:29 AM   #12 (permalink)
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so let me try and understand this. I can do aileron tics tocs on my 450 with short arcs. and i find it hard to do the same on my 250s because of my improper collective management? are you serious?

I allow the motor to breathe, I understand that. I just want to fly my 250 the way I fly my 450. aren't basic principles the same?
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Old 10-22-2010, 11:07 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pitchp View Post
so let me try and understand this. I can do aileron tics tocs on my 450 with short arcs. and i find it hard to do the same on my 250s because of my improper collective management? are you serious?
Absolutely. Today's 450 pros out of the box are crazy powerful, and yes all that power makes tic tocs much easier. Deceptively easy as a matter of fact. Your 250 is not up to the task of performing on the same level as the 450 given your skillset.

My point being if you were to put that 250 in the hands of someone like Bert Kammerer you'd likely see him pull off tic tocs with it that are just as fast if not faster than what you are currently doing with the 450. I've seen him do some crazy things with a low powered stock 250 including high speed, altitude maintaining tic tocs. The difference between him and us mortal men is good collective management.
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Old 10-22-2010, 11:18 AM   #14 (permalink)
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How can I learn good collective management? Where do I begin?
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Old 10-22-2010, 11:57 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Takes years (this is not a cop out answer, it really does)

Keep practicing with your 250. If tic tocs are hard, that's good as you have something to teach you better cm. Also keep working on anything that requires you to go from positive to negative pitch often like stationary rolls and flips. You should be able to do them with no change in altitude.
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Old 10-22-2010, 05:40 PM   #16 (permalink)
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ok, thank you
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Old 10-29-2010, 12:54 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Raza are you here?
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Old 10-29-2010, 01:22 PM   #18 (permalink)
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whatup
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Old 10-31-2010, 08:20 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Raza, my man. How's things. I don't want to start a sim flame war or anything. But ever since I bought the Phoenix simulator and ditched the RF. My tic tocs are endless. I can do tic tocs in circles now. The 250 model in Phoenix is sooo much better than the RF. I have finally got the model running at 4500HS. Although my real 250s are running @ 4500 and 5500 HS( I have 2x250s). Man it is all about the HS in these little birds. The model behaves the same as my real ones!!! Thanks for all the help Raza! Keep flying brother!!
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Old 05-04-2011, 09:42 AM   #20 (permalink)
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can u make a video?
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