600e Pro Tail Blow Outs

[Dino Spadaccini]

glad to see you guys are working out your personal setups. On a side note Align Corp does watch these threads so if you keep asking for options as you are the endusers

Dino

[PitchFella]

Originally Posted by Dino Spadaccini

glad to see you guys are working out your personal setups. On a side note Align Corp does watch these threads so if you keep asking for options as you are the endusers

Dino

ok, i keep asking (not only for optios but...):

- why is align changing the gear ration on the 550 also, i personally (i think as many others) don't see a need to go at a headspeed of 2500/2800rpm on the 550E

a conversion for the 600 pro kit would be a really nice feature and i think MANY endusers expect this

little bit more information before releasing a new model would be really nice and seems to be expected by (some) users as we can see in this thread...

[raptor50luvver]

I agree,why should we have to buy new motors with a lower KV to enable lower headspeeds to be run.

I think Align should not only offer a 4.5 to 1 tail ratio option but offer a different motor mount for the existing motor so we can run the 700E 12t pinion to lower the drive ratio as to run 2200rpm on the head we are running the governors too low,we need to go down a tooth or two on the motor pinion,something thats easy on other helicopters but not this one as its fixed and not adjustable.

Offer an option however you do it to run 2200rpm,4.5 tail ratio,nice efficient powertrain and i will buy it tomorrow without hesitation.

I thank you nice chaps at Align Corp

The more flexible you make the model,the more you can sell,the more you sell the more money you make,your happy,we are happy,everyones happy.

[bobkra]

Just to make sure I understand this....

You bought an Align 600E Pro and:

• installed a different manufacturers servos (Futaba),
• installed a different manufacturer’s FBL system, (V-bar),
• set it up to run at lower than specifically recommended head speed,

.... and now you’re blaming them for your crash?

Because they didn’t design it according to your desire?

And you’re now demanding that anyone / everyone that has successfully flown one, provide video proof of same, while performing maneuvers you specify, which you will immediately refute as faked?

Dang.... and I thought I was demanding.

[wespen]

Well if its not to demanding for every other manufacturer I dont see why Aligh should be exception...

[rotaryguy]

Originally Posted by bobkra

set it up to run at lower than specifically recommended head speed,

Where is this information posted in any of the sales information?

[OnTheSnap]

Originally Posted by bobkra

Just to make sure I understand this....

You bought an Align 600E Pro and:

• installed a different manufacturers servos (Futaba),
• installed a different manufacturer’s FBL system, (V-bar),
• set it up to run at lower than specifically recommended head speed,

.... and now you’re blaming them for your crash?

Because they didn’t design it according to your desire?

And you’re now demanding that anyone / everyone that has successfully flown one, provide video proof of same, while performing maneuvers you specify, which you will immediately refute as faked?

Dang.... and I thought I was demanding.

LOL. I guess this thread could be twisted around and us (the customers) could come across as whiny.

Let me try and relay this in another way -

Exhibit 1:
http://grandrc.com/p50819/T-REX-600E...duct_info.html
This is the Pro FBL combo kit with only blades and motor, no electronics.
Conclusion --> Customer gets to pick FBL system, servos, ESC, BEC which are not included in the kit. Therefore I am operating within the manufacturers parameters.

Exhibit 2:
~Prior Art~
Previous models follow a similar standard on tail gear ratios. Our perspective in the world is guided by our experiences. The Pro design made a radical change in tail gear ratio. Championship pilots fly 600 class machines at 2200-2250. Assumption - 2250 is a good hard 3D head speed. Wrong. 2200 is recommended for beginners. 2500 for pro's. This is a massive paradigm shift unknown in the industry or any other model. On top this, it was vaguely documented, and not mentioned or advertised in any way.

So if you were to just pick up a motor/blades kit like I did and apply your considerable experience to building and setting up the model based on a solid foundation of your experiences with other models. Only to be surprised by an unadvertised (OK, it was in the spec, but come on, no one would catch this) design change which causes sub par performance at head speeds used to win 3D championships.

Blame:
Did I blame Align for my crash? Were they controlling the sticks? My crash was caused by a tail blow out, yes. But it was my mistake for trusting the model during an on the deck routine. Prior to this crash, I had maybe 8 tail blow outs. I worked hard to resolve them, and I "thought" I had fixed it by replacing my tail servo. It wasn't until I pushed it hard 'trying' to do smack that the tail gave out and I piled it. I made several mistakes. I should not have trusted my fix so easily and I should have done several tail torture tests before I started to mess around at low altitude.

So there you have it.

[stevehof]

OnTheSnap, hey, most of us really appreciate your well thought out and well written discussion of this problem. At the very least, Align didn't do enough to promote the idea that this heli, as designed and delivered, was supposed to be flown way out of what we all would consider 'normal' head speed ranges.

[mickeyjohnston]

First let me start by saying I love a 2500 head speed on a 550. If you want to run 2200 head speed on a 600, run larger tail blades. Thanks to some testing by people on here, it's been confirmed it works.

[smaze17]

I should be receiving my 600 Pro this week. Sorry if this question has been asked already but what headspeed should I be running? Is the stock setup ok as far as the tail is concerned? I am a sport flyer not hard 3D.

Thanks in advance

S

[OnTheSnap]

Originally Posted by smaze17

I should be receiving my 600 Pro this week. Sorry if this question has been asked already but what headspeed should I be running? Is the stock setup ok as far as the tail is concerned? I am a sport flyer not hard 3D.

Thanks in advance

S

Check out this thread - https://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=316511

Lots of other guys asking the same question. For sport flying 95mm should be fine at lower headspeeds, even moderate 3D is ok.. Just start to see problems with hard collective maneuvers pushing lots of pitch, fast sideways flight.

[smaze17]

will do

thanks!

s

[AlignCorp]

Well Guys, we really appreciate your comments and or suggestions. From time to time there is a chance for changes and or modifications to be made.

Back in the day when we were design for 2100 or less head speeds we used the 4.5 to 4.8 ratio due to the headspeed that were present. Again back in the day say 10 years ago 1850 was the dialed in head speed.

Then we move to 2011, we design based on what we see most common at all flying fields around the world. Guys flying at 2100 and above, even on 6s Trex 600 ESP people have been going way beyond this. Any of you who attend fun flys know that this is very common. Now considering the New Trex 600 EFL PRO we have in fact taken these fact into consideration when designing the tail gear ratio for guys who may be you that are actually using head speeds beyond 2100. So to indicate why the 3.85 ratio was use was by design. For those that are going way beyond 2100. You all have buddies out there pushing their machines faster and harder than they have ever gone in the past.

Also like to point out that rather than not say anything, we have provided video of the 2200 head speed. Taking rotor head speed sample off a video screen that uses a similar chip as your gyros is not going to yeild accurate results. This is why I asked Alan and Danny to give you a video of 2250 and 2400 so you could see the difference. So choose your head speed and fly. But the video clearly shows that the tail is holding with no issues. Now if you want to stab the cyclic and collective in the corner and expect the tail to hold your going to have to set up your helicopter correctly so that you don't bogg your machine with maximum pitch and cyclic.

We'd like you to show your videos of your Trex 600 EFL PRO and show us a flight or two with your perferred head speed.

Like I mentioned, in the past 1850 was the zigging head speed. So rather than worry about headspeed, fly your model the way you like and have fun.

ALIGN Trex 600 Pro 3GX lower headspeed vs. higher headspeed (2250 vs 2400) (1 min 45 sec)

ALIGN Trex 600 Pro 3GX lower headspeed vs. higher headspeed (2250 vs 2400) (1 min 45 sec)

Best Regards,
Jeff Fassbinder
Align R/C
__________________
Align, Conquer Your Heart

[victor_leon]

Originally Posted by AlignCorp

Well Guys, we really appreciate your comments and or suggestions. From time to time there is a chance for changes and or modifications to be made.

Back in the day when we were design for 2100 or less head speeds we used the 4.5 to 4.8 ratio due to the headspeed that were present. Again back in the day say 10 years ago 1850 was the dialed in head speed.

Then we move to 2011, we design based on what we see most common at all flying fields around the world. Guys flying at 2100 and above, even on 6s Trex 600 ESP people have been going way beyond this. Any of you who attend fun flys know that this is very common. Now considering the New Trex 600 EFL PRO we have in fact taken these fact into consideration when designing the tail gear ratio for guys who may be you that are actually using head speeds beyond 2100. So to indicate why the 3.85 ratio was use was by design. For those that are going way beyond 2100. You all have buddies out there pushing their machines faster and harder than they have ever gone in the past.

Also like to point out that rather than not say anything, we have provided video of the 2200 head speed. Taking rotor head speed sample off a video screen that uses a similar chip as your gyros is not going to yeild accurate results. This is why I asked Alan and Danny to give you a video of 2250 and 2400 so you could see the difference. So choose your head speed and fly. But the video clearly shows that the tail is holding with no issues. Now if you want to stab the cyclic and collective in the corner and expect the tail to hold your going to have to set up your helicopter correctly so that you don't bogg your machine with maximum pitch and cyclic.

We'd like you to show your videos of your Trex 600 EFL PRO and show us a flight or two with your perferred head speed.

Like I mentioned, in the past 1850 was the zigging head speed. So rather than worry about headspeed, fly your model the way you like and have fun.

YouTube

YouTube

Best Regards,
Jeff Fassbinder
Align R/C
__________________
Align, Conquer Your Heart

Thanks Jeff.

One question, why the new 700 E V2 comes whit 4.33 tail ratio instead 3.85?

http://www.align.com.tw/shop/product...oducts_id=3956

[cb3d]

This is one of the best threads Ive seen yet. I agree with both parties on this issue and just when I start to favor one more, the other side makes an excellent point. It makes me think of my Blade mcpx and the threads posted over there. The mcpx will lose its tail when jamming on the sticks as well. It has taught me to be a better pilot with my collective management that has also translated over to my bigger helis. I think Align is right that the lower hs can be flown with better piloting skills, isnt that what we should really be striving for anyway rather than a heli so overpowered it makes up for our shortcomings? That being said tho, as a loyal Align customer and fan, and the amount of money they have made from me and many others like you, I dont think its too much to ask of Align to produce multiple gear ratios as people have suggested. Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread, and a special Thank you to Align for an amazing heli.

[raptor50luvver]

I agree it has been a good thread and will be fascinating as a now uninvolved party how it develops.But for me it came down to the fact that there are hundreds of videos of 12s 600 size helis performing very well on more acceptable headspeed,the whole point of fbl was you can run a more efficient lower headpseed and still have the cyclic agility and pop.

There was a fascinating thread somewhere but i cant find it now that explained how you get punished in duration and efficiency the more you increase the headspeed.

Some fliers will want wham bam thank you mam flights that are over in 4 minutes but i dont.

For me the 550E and 700E are bang on the money and i will continue to enjoy them but the 600 Pro has missed it completely for me personally,not that it isnt a great helicopter because it is,its just not targeted at the type of setup i want out of the box.

I flew my 600E for the last time today with a good friend who has a Logo 600,i got an extra minute from using my packs in his model running 2200rpm on the head and his performed better and that in a nutshell was the last nail in the coffin.

Seriously if Align are trying to produce class winning electric models they really need to take a very close look at the way Mikado go about things and see where they can improve on it.Align have done wonders for this hobby since they have been involved,i almost dread to think what the market would be like now without them being a major player but i honestly think they have specced the 600E Pro wrong to tempt buyers away from whats already well proven.

[OnTheSnap]

Originally Posted by cb3d

This is one of the best threads Ive seen yet. I agree with both parties on this issue and just when I start to favor one more, the other side makes an excellent point. It makes me think of my Blade mcpx and the threads posted over there. The mcpx will lose its tail when jamming on the sticks as well. It has taught me to be a better pilot with my collective management that has also translated over to my bigger helis. I think Align is right that the lower hs can be flown with better piloting skills, isnt that what we should really be striving for anyway rather than a heli so overpowered it makes up for our shortcomings? That being said tho, as a loyal Align customer and fan, and the amount of money they have made from me and many others like you, I dont think its too much to ask of Align to produce multiple gear ratios as people have suggested. Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread, and a special Thank you to Align for an amazing heli.

LOL. MCPX vs. 600 Pro tail performance. That's a good one. I can certainly fly with good collective, but I also like violent "gonna break it" smack. Why should there be limits?

Rest of the world - Flies 600's at 'old' pro headspeeds of 2200-2250. For fun, we also ran 1900 h/s to do "slow 3D" where collective management really mattered.

New Align world - We run 2500 h/s to get the smack 3D with no careful collective management required. 2200 becomes the new "slow 3D".

The problem:
Higher headspeeds take a lot more current when doing nothing but a hover. So flight times really suffer. So most guys like myself find the 3D performance headspeed that turns heads and provides the best flight times.

2nd problem:
Where do I buy 600mm blades that are safety rated for 2500 RPM?

I think Align's 2500 solution probably provides the same performance I get at 2250 with arguably the worlds best governor (vBar gov). But I probably average a full extra minute of flight time since I'm not burning as much 'static' energy.

Anyway, a very simple $30 solution makes the new tail ratio issue go away. 105mm tail blades and 550e/700e rear landing gear to get the tail up in the air. Problem solved. So now I get 5m flights running Voltz 3700mah packs banging the crud out of my 600pro with less than <50 RPM variation. Heli happiness.

I have about 20 flights in now with the 105mm tail and it's just spectacular. I can't break free the tail in any maneuver.

[504Rone]

Snap, what esc are you using?

[rotaryguy]

YGE HV90
http://www.yge.de/artikel.php?search=yge90hv

[OnTheSnap]

Here's another pro pilot example of 2200 RPM on a 600. Bobby Watts and the Furion6: http://www.bobbywatts.com/site/minia..._furion_6.html

Quote from Bobby:

Flight time-> At 2200 rpm, I am safely getting 5 minutes of flight time, putting about 80% back into the batteries.

I have yet to find a single pro running 2500 other than Danny and Alan on the 600 Pro.