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Blade 450X Blade 450X Helicopters Information and Help


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Old 06-01-2014, 01:26 AM   #201 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiloXray View Post
I am hoping someone will explain why changing a frame would cause a drastic, or any for that matter, change in tail gain.
...

If you would have bothered to have read, I didn't just change a frame. I changed the frame, put in a new motor, and put a different BX that I just updated the firmware on. It was basically a scratch build requiring a full setup. I've done a bit of tuning to the BX in the past, but I've never set one up from scratch... that's what I'm in the middle of now.

And if you can't understand that gain sensitivity could increase with a more rigid frame... different weight, new motor, new servos... I guess there's no point to even set up a BX eh? It should fly everything with the same settings? lol
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Old 06-01-2014, 02:18 AM   #202 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by distructor View Post
I've the MH frame, MKS servos and a bunch of parts spread across the kitchen table.
I'd love to return the MH frame but I have it half assembled, so returning it is not an option. About the only thing to do is try to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear as my dad used to say.

Has anyone gotten MKS D95 size servos to fit with reasonable spacers?
What's wrong with the frame?... I have a 300x MH frame and it is excellent.
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Old 06-01-2014, 05:51 AM   #203 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xenophobe View Post
...

If you would have bothered to have read, I didn't just change a frame. I changed the frame, put in a new motor, and put a different BX that I just updated the firmware on. It was basically a scratch build requiring a full setup. I've done a bit of tuning to the BX in the past, but I've never set one up from scratch... that's what I'm in the middle of now.

And if you can't understand that gain sensitivity could increase with a more rigid frame... different weight, new motor, new servos... I guess there's no point to even set up a BX eh? It should fly everything with the same settings? lol
Sheesh dude, need a hug?

I did read the whole thread. I am aware of what you are doing. You specifically asked "What kind of gain settings are you guys with this frame running?" as though the frame was the main deciding factor. I do not think that is the case and is the reason I was asking the question. I was hoping for an informative response either confirming my knowledge or teaching me why my understanding was incorrect. I still maintain, until someone can concisely explain to me otherwise, that a frame change alone should not drastically affect your gains. Sorry you took offense.


Are you open to tuning advice on the BX? Here is what I would suggest:

Start with Dial 3 at 0 (in the middle, no pos, no neg) and Parameter D set to Solid Red. Changing dial 3 should be about the last thing you do, after you find the main tail gain, do a rate hover, re-set tail endpoints, setup parameter D, and then double check your main tail gain.

Start with the gyro gain in your TX very low and work your way up. You almost always will want to work from too low gain to finding were it turn into too high and then just back off a bit. I would suggest starting at a value that is around +30% and climb from there, unless you already have a fast wag at that value. If you do, drop it another 10% and start over.

I'm not sure how the gain values work in your Devo radio. If it is -100 through +100, then by "+30%", I mean a value of +30.

If it is setup (like a DX6i) with a range of 0-100 (with 50 being 0) then that +30% translates into a number more like +65.

In general these are the steps to tune a tail on BX.

1. Start with low gain values.

2. Find main tail gain (gov off preferably)

3. Do a rate mode hover. Adjust tail rod length accordingly.

4. Re-set tail endpoints.

5. Setup parameter D.

6. Double check That Gyro gain.

7. Adjust dial 3 to your liking.
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Old 06-01-2014, 10:58 PM   #204 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiloXray View Post
Sheesh dude, need a hug?
Seriously, do you always have to have a condescending and arrogant attitude? Your last post was pure troll as well.

Quote:
I did read the whole thread. I am aware of what you are doing. You specifically asked "What kind of gain settings are you guys with this frame running?" as though the frame was the main deciding factor. I do not think that is the case and is the reason I was asking the question. I was hoping for an informative response either confirming my knowledge or teaching me why my understanding was incorrect. I still maintain, until someone can concisely explain to me otherwise, that a frame change alone should not drastically affect your gains. Sorry you took offense.


Are you open to tuning advice on the BX? Here is what I would suggest:

Start with Dial 3 at 0 (in the middle, no pos, no neg) and Parameter D set to Solid Red. Changing dial 3 should be about the last thing you do, after you find the main tail gain, do a rate hover, re-set tail endpoints, setup parameter D, and then double check your main tail gain.

Start with the gyro gain in your TX very low and work your way up. You almost always will want to work from too low gain to finding were it turn into too high and then just back off a bit. I would suggest starting at a value that is around +30% and climb from there, unless you already have a fast wag at that value. If you do, drop it another 10% and start over.

I'm not sure how the gain values work in your Devo radio. If it is -100 through +100, then by "+30%", I mean a value of +30.

If it is setup (like a DX6i) with a range of 0-100 (with 50 being 0) then that +30% translates into a number more like +65.

In general these are the steps to tune a tail on BX.

1. Start with low gain values.

2. Find main tail gain (gov off preferably)

3. Do a rate mode hover. Adjust tail rod length accordingly.

4. Re-set tail endpoints.

5. Setup parameter D.

6. Double check That Gyro gain.

7. Adjust dial 3 to your liking.
And I did first start at 51 gain, tried 65-51. No effect. I tried lowering Dial 3 from center (0, or commonly referred to as 9 o'clock by many)... no real effect. So I put that back to center. I needed to adjust Param D to Low... at 51 tx it introduced cyclic wobble and the tail was slightly hunting... I ran out of time.

I'm going to bring up Param D to default and lower the mechanical gain on the tail and see if that's a better starting point.

My stock 450x has Param D set to high and tx at 65... my other was set similarly. I assumed, just as you did that there shouldn't be much change. The 450 MH clearly does not need as much gain. The default BX settings should have been a decent starting point. They weren't.
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Old 06-03-2014, 09:56 AM   #205 (permalink)
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I just rebuilt my 450X using the Microheli CF frame. I suppose what prompted me was that the last time I landed hard (a crash where the heli is upright ) the stock Blade frame broke in 7 places. Who knows why I didn't just retire the 450X? Must be sentimental reasons: it has served me consistently and well for many flights.

So, even though I love to fly my Gaui X3 and X5, I dropped $85 for a replacement frame. Here's my first impressions after several test flights.

Overall, I like what Microheli has done with the CF frame. I like: the direct elevator linkage to the swash, the easily adjustable motor mount, non-slipping tail boom attachment to frame, ease of physically setting up electronic components and wiring, and screws into metal not plastic. And, I had no configuration issues getting it to fly well.

However, there is a significant weakness in the lower rear portion of the frame. There is very little structural strength to this part of the frame making it susceptible to damaging forces coming from the rear landing skid point of attachment. In addition, damaging force is not distributed. It's all focused at small connection points on the CF frame. From a strength and crashability perspective, you're not much better off than with the weak little plastic tabs on the stock frame.



Here’s an example. Today, I landed hard because my lipo died. The only damage was: broken landing skids, bent rear aluminum skid support, and a twisted and bent CF frame above the rear aluminum skid support.



I really don't like the structurally weak CF sides in the rear portion of the frame and the fact that force is not distributed. I don't want to have to replace the frame whenever I land hard. That’s why I didn’t like the Blade plastic frame.

Update: Since I originally posted this review, Microheli offered to send me a free replacement for the right frame that was damaged (MH-450X005FR). Clearly, they are a good customer service company.

For a structural strength comparison, I looked at the lower frame support of my other 450-sized heli, a Gaui X3.

On the X3, a rigid lightweight plate runs the entire length of the lower edges of the frame providing structural strength and distributing any impact force coming from the skids.



If I had known what I know now about the structural weakness of the Microheli frame, I wouldn't have bought it.

I would either have replaced the stock $12.75 plastic frame or purchased another Gaui and reused the 450X electronics.

Footnote: I submitted a review of this frame to both the Microheli site's product listing and the heli-nation US distributor site where I purchased the frame. Neither have posted my review. (I'll update this comment if they eventually post it)
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Last edited by lmcwilli; 06-06-2014 at 06:06 AM..
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Old 07-08-2014, 02:20 PM   #206 (permalink)
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Well, I like the frame, but it's gonna take at least 2 1/2 weeks to get a replacement part... I have to wait for them to list the part on the web site... I was planning on ordering other stuff, they couldn't be bothered to send me an invoice or another way to pay... so they lost future purchases from me and have lost my confidence.

I didn't mind that MH metal is soft and bends way too easy... They always took care of me in a timely fashion. Now that's not the case, I don't see a point in purchasing their products again, especially not direct from them. Too bad so sad. Oh well, they don't seem to care.

And it's not like I purchased at a lower price from a vendor, I purchased direct from them.... Oh well. Good thing they're not the only company providing aftermarket parts...
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Old 07-08-2014, 03:27 PM   #207 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xenophobe View Post
Well, I like the frame, but it's gonna take at least 2 1/2 weeks to get a replacement part...
That's what I was afraid of... A great many of us went through this exact same thing with the MH mCPX carbon frame and it was a lot longer than 2.5 weeks for the same lower frame part that everyone kept breaking and needed.
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Old 07-08-2014, 05:18 PM   #208 (permalink)
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Well, I don't really know exactly how long it will take, but it's far longer than it should be. They said they'd put the part up by the weekend, but I had waited several days just to get a rep on their livechat. That ended up being a waste of my time...

I was ready to place an order... every other time I've needed spare parts, they'd let me place the order, give them the order number and they'd include the replacement parts with my order.

This time... they said wait a week for them to update their site and then place the order. Which leaves shipping time from Vietnam or wherever to their USA location, then shipping from there to here. Yeah. No thanks. I'm not particularly happy that they can't just invoice me for a couple of bucks after I place the order. So they've lost business over a silly $2 part when I was sitting there waiting for 3 days to place a $100+ order that's not gonna happen now.

Now there is no real point to ordering direct... save a few bucks and order from stocking dealers, or pick a company that has better CS.

Oh well. MH isn't worth the trouble if their CS is getting worse, not better.

FWIW, I just added it up, I've spent $629.18 on direct purchase MH products... and they never give discounts or coupon codes or holiday sales either.
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Old 07-08-2014, 09:55 PM   #209 (permalink)
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What part do you need?
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Old 07-09-2014, 12:22 AM   #210 (permalink)
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Well, I inquired about the canopy pin and the support bracket, but all I really need is the canopy pin. I'm gonna see if I can cut down one of my extra metal ones... or maybe see if I can get a stock plastic one to work.
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Old 07-13-2014, 07:38 PM   #211 (permalink)
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They started adding parts for the frame on the website. More will come, please be patient. http://www.microheli.com/store/products_new.php
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Old 07-13-2014, 08:20 PM   #212 (permalink)
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I have one unassembled and one assembled MH frame if anyone is interested, send me a PM.
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Old 07-17-2014, 10:17 AM   #213 (permalink)
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Default MicroHeli beats Blade to a new 450CFX

Finally got a date....

Hi James,

Please order this part on July 18th,2014.

Thanks,

HUY


On 2014-07-11 12:08, James Viney wrote:
Hi
I experienced a crash with the recently released carbon frame for the
Blade 450. When will we be able to purchase the parts individually for
repair?
Thanks
James Viney
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Old 07-17-2014, 02:02 PM   #214 (permalink)
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Yeah, I ordered only what I needed. I decided not to buy the 500x bottom metal and the 450x swash from MH. Placed a $10 order just to get fixed. Lynx got a $100 order from me the other day. lol Figured I'd try the helical CNC main gear and pinion as well as pick up a bunch of odds and ends.
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Old 07-17-2014, 02:56 PM   #215 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xenophobe View Post
Yeah, I ordered only what I needed. I decided not to buy the 500x bottom metal and the 450x swash from MH. Placed a $10 order just to get fixed. Lynx got a $100 order from me the other day. lol Figured I'd try the helical CNC main gear and pinion as well as pick up a bunch of odds and ends.
Does Lynx make a metal 450X swashplate? I know they have one for the 300X/CFX, but they didn't have one back when I was looking for something better than the Blade metal swash (they're JUNK). MH was the only one I could find. I'm not a MH fan, but their 450X metal swash is actually pretty good. Mine's still slop free after many flights, unlike the Blade garbage. I bought a second Blade swash and it was actually looser out of the package than the one I was replacing with only about 150 flights on it. Way too much slop in the bearing. It's like the balls were undersized or something because you could pull the two plates apart and rock them back and forth independently of each other. The warranty replacement Blade sent me had the bearing so tight it wouldn't even make a whole revolution when holding it by the ball and flicking the servo side plate by hand. I actually installed it and put a few flights on it to see if it would break in but, nope. Got a refund on that one.
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Old 07-17-2014, 04:19 PM   #216 (permalink)
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I'm surprised there isn't an alternative swash. I'm guessing there might be an Align or Tarot swash that would work.

You're right, the Blade swashes are horrible... the metal upgrade one is just the same horrible parts that fail. Brand new and they're sloppy... put a hundred flights on one and it's even sloppier.
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Old 07-17-2014, 04:36 PM   #217 (permalink)
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Well, there is a decent alternative with MH even though we may not like the company. A trusted friend had been running one on his 450X for quite a while and he flies pretty hard. It was still slop free so I decided to take a chance on one for myself. Glad I did. It's nicely machined and doesn't have a soft brass uni-ball to wear down quickly. That was another major slop point in both the Blade stock and all metal swashes since that upper area is exactly the same between the two. You could grab the swash and push/pull it 90 degrees to the mainshaft and it would move and "click" quite a bit. Enough to be more than visible. The MH swash ball appears to be steel. It's silver and I wouldn't imagine they'd have a soft aluminum ball sliding on a steel shaft. It's also nicely supported with nylon/Delrin instead of being in direct metal-to-metal contact. This keeps it very smooth and slop free.
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