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Old 02-23-2015, 06:09 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skywagon View Post
This forum is one of the best I have come across concerning Mixing, even thou I am of the fixed wing vs. the rotorary wing world. ( I gave up trying to fly an RC helio 40 years ago. ! )
I have a question about the Excel formula and graphing results. And I am trying to figure out were my thinking error comes about.
The Excel graph print-out for mix settings of "50,0,10" show the low range results on the +10 line of the vertical axis running from +10 to -100 on the horiz. axis. My vision is that it should be running of the "0" vertical axis line from the mix range +10 to -100.

I plotted the mix values for several other mix set-ups and attached my crude attempt at the results. I need the experts guidance. . .The truth shall set me free. . .hopefully.
WOW. . guess that I cannot attach my plotted Mixs. If I figure this forum out, I will send the plotting later. . . .

Assuming mix is:
in>out: high 50, low 0, offset 10

If the in channel is 10 or below, no change to the output channel is made.
If the in channel is about 10, then: ((in channel - 10)/2) is added to the output channel.

(remember in channel 10 is the new 0 - so take (in channel - 10) to determine if high or low before applying weight).

Pop quiz: For the mix 50,0,10 if out channel is 20 and in channel is 20, what is the output value?

Answer: in channel is > 10 so high mix is applied. So adjust is ((20-10)*(50/100)) = (10)*(1/2) = 5. This is added to the output channel value of 20, so the result is out channel becomes 25.

Hope this helps clear things up.
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Old 02-23-2015, 06:37 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Thanks Archimage. . .I sent you a PM about this. . .
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageAU View Post
Assuming mix is:
in>out: high 50, low 0, offset 10

If the in channel is 10 or below, no change to the output channel is made.
If the in channel is about 10, then: ((in channel - 10)/2) is added to the output channel.

(remember in channel 10 is the new 0 - so take (in channel - 10) to determine if high or low before applying weight).

Pop quiz: For the mix 50,0,10 if out channel is 20 and in channel is 20, what is the output value?

Answer: in channel is > 10 so high mix is applied. So adjust is ((20-10)*(50/100)) = (10)*(1/2) = 5. This is added to the output channel value of 20, so the result is out channel becomes 25.

Hope this helps clear things up.
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Old 02-23-2015, 10:59 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Got the PM, but will post the answer here as others may benefit from it.

Quote:
For instance. my first mix need is a simple one. I want the elevator (slave) servo to move linearly from neutral to about +10 when the throttle (master) movement drops from about 30% to cutoff. This is to compensate with a model that drops its glide too much at cutoff.
Not being a plane guy, I'll try to understand.

I as assuming you have normal elevator movement when throttle is above 30%. Below 30%, you want a linear add to elevator till throttle hits 0%, with being +10% to elevator.

So the mix, the input is thr and the output is ele.

Next, the throttle needs to be translated to -100/+100 notation. so 30% becomes -40 (x = (n*2)-100 = (30*2)-100 = 60-100 = -40)

Next at -40, the change is 0, at -100, the change is +10. There to extend this out to -140 (-40 less 100), the change would be 16.666 (10 * 100 / 60).

So the mix becomes:
thr > ele : high 0 / low 17 / offset -40


Hope this makes sense. Please test and tell me how it goes (as I no longer have a DX8 to test on).
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Old 02-25-2015, 11:23 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Thanks for the reply Archimage,

You stated my first Mix task correctly . .
I will digest your Mix formula suggestion and get back to the Forum in a day or two.
Were you able to receive my "Plotting" examples. Hopefully, they did not go to a junk file. . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageAU View Post
Got the PM, but will post the answer here as others may benefit from it.



Not being a plane guy, I'll try to understand.

I as assuming you have normal elevator movement when throttle is above 30%. Below 30%, you want a linear add to elevator till throttle hits 0%, with being +10% to elevator.

So the mix, the input is thr and the output is ele.

Next, the throttle needs to be translated to -100/+100 notation. so 30% becomes -40 (x = (n*2)-100 = (30*2)-100 = 60-100 = -40)

Next at -40, the change is 0, at -100, the change is +10. There to extend this out to -140 (-40 less 100), the change would be 16.666 (10 * 100 / 60).

So the mix becomes:
thr > ele : high 0 / low 17 / offset -40


Hope this makes sense. Please test and tell me how it goes (as I no longer have a DX8 to test on).
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Old 02-25-2015, 07:32 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skywagon View Post
Thanks for the reply Archimage,

You stated my first Mix task correctly . .
I will digest your Mix formula suggestion and get back to the Forum in a day or two.
Were you able to receive my "Plotting" examples. Hopefully, they did not go to a junk file. . .
OK. Got the mail and the graphs (been really busy the last few days, which is why I have not been posting much).

As you are new user on the forum (3 posts), I'll post it here, as per request, and answer the queries. This is also why posts are mediated (take time to appear) and you cannot change avatar yet.



For the "50,0,10 (is this correct?)" plot, the answer is no.

The vertical axis on the graph is the "addition" to elevator (not elevator itself).

This is why the light blue plot of "50,0,10??" is correct.

As you can see, whatever you make the last number, that is the point the "addition" is 0.

The first number is the gradient of the line to the right of the last number. The second number is the gradient of the line to the left of the last number.

You will notice 50,-10,50 intersects the elevator "addition" axis at -15. It passed through -10 at throttle value -50 (which is 50 less 100). So the gradient is the number through which the addition will pass when it is channel value 100 from the offset point.

Also the plot of "0,40,-30" intersects the "addition" axis at 28 (although it looks like 30 - 40 * (100-30) / 100 = 40 * 70 / 100 = 2800 / 100 = 28 - 70 is the distance between -30 and -100 ).

You ask:
Quote:
I can't rationalize why a Hi Mix value gets cast into the low mix range when the low mix = 0
In short it does not. When low mix is 0, if the value of the in-channel is less than the offset, then the "addition" is 0.

It is my understanding that these values are taken BEFORE channel reversing, sub-trim and travel adjust(someone needs to check this). Ideally you need to verify your mixes with reversing off, sub-trim 0 and travel adjust 0 (high and low), then reapply these for your model.

It you want to have a trim alteration to elevator (so 10 is the new normal), this can be done in either trim or sub-trim.


Hope this makes sense.
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Old 03-01-2015, 04:23 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skywagon View Post
Thanks for the reply Archimage,

You stated my first Mix task correctly . .
I will digest your Mix formula suggestion and get back to the Forum in a day or two.
Were you able to receive my "Plotting" examples. Hopefully, they did not go to a junk file. . .
Archimage. . . Thanks for hanging in with examples and additional explanations. I can now visualize and graph the affects that Rates and Offset do to the Mix on the Slave/out channel.
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Old 12-09-2015, 03:34 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageAU View Post
It's a good start.........
.........
Adjust = ((M-OS)/100)*RH and ((M-OS)/100)*-RL
where:
M = Master Channel
OS = Offset
RH = Rate High (over 0 mix)
RL = Rate Low (under 0 mix)


In excel format:
cell B1=RH (label in cell A1 = "Rate High")
cell B2=RL (label in cell A2 = "Rate Low")
cell B3=OS (label in cell A3 = "Offset")
(label in cell A4 = "Master", label in cell B4 = "Mix")
cells A5 to A100 are the master values -150 -> +150 (choose your own granularity)
cell B5=IF($A5>0,(($A5-$B$3)/100)*$B$1),(($A5-$B$3)/100)*(-$B$1))
** formula is for cell B5 and can be copied to B5 to B100
Just programming my new DX9 and came across this brilliant thread. Having read all the posts a couple of times I think I now understand the "magic" of Spektrum Tx mixes. So, a big thank you to all the posters here.......but .....being slightly OCD in character I have been using the excel spreadsheet method to help reinforce the learning. Here I ran into a small query on post #34 from ArchmageAU. (extract attached here).
Could I confirm if there are a couple of typos in the line that reads:-

cell B5=IF($A5>0,(($A5-$B$3)/100)*$B$1),(($A5-$B$3)/100)*(-$B$1))

Should it perhaps read:-

cell B5=IF(($A5-$B$3)>0,(($A5-$B$3)/100*$B$1),(($A5-$B$3)/100)*(-$B$2))

I would really appreciate a comment on this as it currently leaves me with an itch which I just can't seem to scratch.
Once again many thanks
H31
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Old 12-09-2015, 03:28 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heliboy31 View Post
Just programming my new DX9 and came across this brilliant thread. Having read all the posts a couple of times I think I now understand the "magic" of Spektrum Tx mixes. So, a big thank you to all the posters here.......but .....being slightly OCD in character I have been using the excel spreadsheet method to help reinforce the learning. Here I ran into a small query on post #34 from ArchmageAU. (extract attached here).
Could I confirm if there are a couple of typos in the line that reads:-

cell B5=IF($A5>0,(($A5-$B$3)/100)*$B$1),(($A5-$B$3)/100)*(-$B$1))

Should it perhaps read:-

cell B5=IF(($A5-$B$3)>0,(($A5-$B$3)/100*$B$1),(($A5-$B$3)/100)*(-$B$2))

I would really appreciate a comment on this as it currently leaves me with an itch which I just can't seem to scratch.
Once again many thanks
H31
Yes, you are correct.

Formula should be as you described.
cell B5=IF(($A5-$B$3)>0,(($A5-$B$3)/100*$B$1),(($A5-$B$3)/100)*(-$B$2))
Thank you for pointing that out. I will ocrrect the original post.

(Hopefully that relieves the itch )
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Old 12-12-2015, 02:31 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Ahhhh! Itch relieved and mixes understood. Cheers.
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Old 12-12-2015, 04:10 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Default Great Job. . . .Mixing

Great job watching great minds defining the "mystery" of the DX series of mixology. Hopefully, Spektrum with come up with an intuitive method for setting mixes in their next radio generation . .
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Old 12-13-2015, 05:46 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skywagon View Post
Great job watching great minds defining the "mystery" of the DX series of mixology. Hopefully, Spektrum with come up with an intuitive method for setting mixes in their next radio generation . .
I would not hold your breath. The next gen radios (DX6, DX7, DX9, etc...) still use the same mixing.

Once you have bent your mind to think this way, it's hard to un-bend (and makes model migration through the TX series harder).

The most logical TX mix method I have seen is on OpenTX (Trivial in comparison to Spektrum mixes). However learning OpenTX requires a new way of thinking about TX's in general (and why a lot struggle with it initially).

If you are starting to REQUIRE really complex mixing, Spektrum may not be your best bet. However if you want ease of use, field support and good corporate support, persisting with Spektrum (and warping your mix mind) may be your best bet.
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Old 12-13-2015, 01:54 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Default Mixing. . .the Future

Thanks for the summary. . .
This web site, its members and web creator is still the finest on this planet dealing with our hobby. This pilots opinion. . .
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Old 12-13-2015, 06:46 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skywagon View Post
Great job watching great minds defining the "mystery" of the DX series of mixology. Hopefully, Spektrum with come up with an intuitive method for setting mixes in their next radio generation . .
Once you undertsand what is going on and how it works it seems very flexible to me. What did you have in mind that might make it more "intuitive"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skywagon View Post
Thanks for the summary. . .
This web site, its members and web creator is still the finest on this planet dealing with our hobby. This pilots opinion. . .
D
Agreed
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Old 12-13-2015, 08:09 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aerocal View Post
Once you undertsand what is going on and how it works it seems very flexible to me. What did you have in mind that might make it more "intuitive"?
...
Is pretty flexible as is, but not "intuitive".

Improvements:

A graphical representation of the mix would be a great start (like already done for pitch and throttle curves).

Having a "curve" mix option would be a great addition.

Having a PC simulator to create and test .SPM files would be a welcome addition.

How about having "intermediate" channels that can be the target of mix so it can act as inputs to other mixes? At the moment, the output of one mix cannot be the input to another mix.
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Old 12-13-2015, 11:51 PM   #55 (permalink)
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A PC graphical representation program probably wouldnt be that hard for someone to create. As far as the Spektrum team themselves putting one together I tend to think they have their hands full as it is.
We already have the Monitor function. This is already a good representation of the end result of all programming headed out to the Rx.

Curve Mixes with graphical representation are available on the DX18&G2 radios.
From what I have gathered the features/functions of the DX7s/DX8 are limited by the available processing power that is already pretty much used to its full capabilities already.

Using intermediate or ghost channels for mixing purposes is also possible on DX18/G2 radios. There are also several other limitations that have been overcome. Especially with heli mixes. Dedicated Multi type model functions add to this.

As far as the DX7s/Dx8 go what it is pretty much is all that is going to be available with the available hardware resources installed.
If your looking for more capabilities maybe its time for an upgrade.
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Old 02-11-2017, 01:06 PM   #56 (permalink)
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While I think your explanation helps a lot, I think that what some people fail to remember is that sometimes we're referring to percentages and at other times we're referring to values. The throttle stick range goes from a "value" of -100 to a "value" of +100; but in terms of percentages this range is from 0% to 100%. In my case I have to be careful that I'm referring to the correct term value vs percentage. Also, I've found that some manuals (like the Microbeast plus user manual) provides some tables for setting up the governor and it's not quite clear to which term (value/percentage) they're referring (or inferring). It becomes difficult when one switches back and forth. For grins I setup a new heli model, input your FM 1/2 settings, Gov settings and Mix 1/2 settings and then went over to my monitor screen and noted the results as I switched between the two flight modes and gov switch positions. What I get on the monitor screen are 100, 90, 80, 70, 60, 50 (%'s) - not the 100, 95...75% that you indicate. So, where am I going wrong? For the Mix 1 setup I selected FM2 and for the Mix 2 setup I selected FM1. The Throttle Curves are set to FM 1 = 85% and FM 2 = 100%. Can you help me understand the apparent discrepancy?
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Old 02-11-2017, 01:15 PM   #57 (permalink)
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So, in an attempt to figure out what was going on I went back to FM0 and on the monitor screen I set my throttle stick to 90% on the monitor screen; then I went back to my throttle curve setup menu and saw that the value shown down at the bottom of the screen was 95! What makes it all confusing is that the monitor screen goes from -100% to +100%. I can't believe the Spektrum designers couldn't have made this very much easier...
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Old 02-11-2017, 03:46 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Which of the three pages of explanations you are making reference to? It's difficult to understand on a one year old thread...
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Old 07-12-2017, 11:16 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Since this is the first thing to pop up on most google searches, here is what I found:
This will allow you to use 4 banks and separate throttle curves independent of each other.
Aka, set 1 governed head speed... have 3 % F-mode's of that head speed (aka, 2000 head speed, 90% flat=1800... 95% flat=1900... you get the point)
and also 4 separate banks.
My head hurts, and I'm not sure about the math behind it a lot of IF statements and using excel but i got it working.... not perfect but it works.

Gyro:
Ch: Gear
SW:Mix
POS0: -80%
Pos1:100%

Mix1: Aux2>gyr
Rate: 50%/ 60%
Offset:75%
Trim:INH
N12H

should I've you -67,-35,25% and whenever you flip gear up in any mode, it will go to bank 3...

Anyone see any issues with this


EDIT: i also figured out how to do it with other switches, aka i did the rudder switch if anyone would like to know...

DR/exp>rudder>inhibit
Gyro>
Pos0:-80%
Pos1:100%
Ch: gear
Sw:mix

Governor:
Pos0: -100%
Pos1: -38%
Pos2: 50%
CH: aux2
SW: Rud D/R

Mix1:
Gov>GYR
Rate: 75%/75% (this 2nd value doesn't ever factor in because Master-Offset is always > 0)
offset:-100%
Trim:INH
N12H

I have 1 year left of mechanical engineering, and this was extremely hard to learn, would have been a homework assignment honestly. So id imagine some people can benefit from it.

Enjoy
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Old 09-29-2020, 09:36 AM   #60 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageAU View Post
Ever wondered what the numbers in mix setting mean on the DX8 in heli models?

You have:
  • Master channel
  • Slave channel
  • Rate: <high percentage> <low percentage>
  • Offset: <percentage>
  • Trim: <INH/ACT>
  • Flight Mode: N12HM

To most except the Spectrum Inner sanctum, these have remained a source of trial and error.

The text from the manual is:



The above offers almost no explanation of how the numbers really work.

What is really going on.

I'll ignore the trim, but expose the rest.

The master channel is the control channel. It's current absolute value (from -150 to +150) is what is important here.

The slave channel is the control channel being altered. It plays only a "carrier" role of the output value from the mix. The mix value derived from the master channel is simply added to the output value on the slave channel.

The Flight modes are fairly self explanatory except for M. M (Mix) is the Gear switch in HELI mode. The great thing about this is now you have a 2 position switch that can be used to enable and disable a mix for ALL flight modes. Gear 1 is mix enabled, Gear 0 is mix disabled. Be careful when using this as it ALWAYS applies regardless of the flight mode. (ie. if you use this for throttle manipulation, it will also manipulate when throttle hold is on).

Now to mix numbers.

Think of the high rate percentage and the low rate percentage as the value the mix will have if the master channel is at +100 and -100 respectively. When the master channel is 0, it will have a value of 0 (irrespective of these other rate numbers). The adjust value of the mix changes linearly as the mix channel moves from centre to (OR PAST) either of these end points.

Offset is where it becomes tricky. Offset is how far to move this entire range so 0 has no change. This is where most peoples brains explode or implode.

If we have an offset of 50, The master channel must be at 50 for no change to slave channel. With this same offset of 50, if the master channel is at -50, the low rate is applied. With this same offset of 50, if the master channel is at -100, 1.5 times the low rate will be applied. With this same offset of 50, if the master channel is at +100, 0.5 times the high rate will be applied to the slave channel.

Last point is that mixes are applied cumulatively. If you have two mixes that affect the same slave channel, both output changes will be applied. That changes will be applied in the order of the Mix configuration. ie. Mix 1 is evaluated first, then Mix 2 (and so on). One other note on this is that all mixes occur to channel outputs and are not available as master inputs for other mixes. ie. If Mix 1 changes Aux2 output, and Mix 2 uses Aux2 to change Throttle, the alterations to the Aux2 output will not be used for the Mix 2 input (as it uses the source Aux2 value).


Uses and abuses for Mixing

My main abuse for mixing is to get more idle up modes (6) for my 130x. Next is to allow rescue on my X5 through the BD3SX.


6 Idle up modes

To get the 6 idle up modes (100, 95, 90, 85, 80 and 75% flat throttle) I use the following 2 mixes.

Mix 1 - Ax2 > Thr 0% -10% 100% (f.mode 2)
Mix 2 - Ax2 > Thr -10% 0% -100% (f.mode 1)

My throttle channel is flat 85% for UI1 and 100% for UI2 . Aux2 is controlled by the Gov switch.

What this does.

When Gov is in pos 0, it output Aux2 +100. Gov pos 1 = Aux2 0. Gov pos 2 = Aux2 -100.
  • In f.mode 2 and gov 0 (top), throttle is 100% (Mix 1 - 100% offset, so master channel at 100 means 0 change).
  • In f.mode 2 and gov 1 (middle), throttle is 95% (Mix 1 - 100% offset. At master value of 0, -10 is applied as master channel is -100 compared to offset (-10 = -5% in throttle terms)).
  • In f.mode 2 and gov 2 (bottom), throttle is 90% (Mix 1 - 100% offset, At master value of -100, -20 is applied as master channel is -200 compared to offset (-20 = 2*-10 as master channel is 2 times further than endpoint from offset). (-20 = -10% throttle terms)).
  • In f.mode 1 and gov 2 (bottom), throttle is 85% (Mix 2 - -100% offset, so master channel at -100 means 0 change, Throttle curve is 85% of UI1).
  • In f.mode 1 and gov 1 (middle), throttle is 80% (Mix 2 - -100% offset. At master value of 0, -10 is applied as master channel is +100 compared to offset (-10 = -5% in throttle terms)).
  • In f.mode 2 and gov 0 (top), throttle is 75% (Mix 2 - -100% offset, At master value of 100, -20 is applied as master channel is +200 compared to offset (-20 = 2*-10 as master channel is 2 times further than endpoint from offset). (-20 = -10% throttle terms)).

BD3SX rescue with auto level

My X5 mixes are for rescue facility on the BD3SX and mix Aux3 to pull the Aux2 channel to full negative when the Aux3 goes to -100 (Aux3 is assigned to my bind button, Aux2 channel is the BD3SX SL channel and assigned to the Gov switch).

To pull the Aux2 channel to full negative when the Aux3 goes to -100 I use the following single mix.

Mix 6 - Ax3 > Ax2 0% -125% 100% (f.mode N12H)

As the Aux 3 channel moves from +100 (no change) to -100, its change relative to the offset is -200 (200%), so -250 (or 2*-125) is applied to the Aux2 channel. This single mix ensures that no matter what the value of the self level (I have only up to 45%), it will pull it to full negative.

The last bit of magic, is during this rescue, I also want to centre the cyclics (elevator and aileron). I was told this cannot be done (which is why the investigation into mixing). I found a way.

Mix 1 - Ax3 > Ail 0% -125% 100% (f.mode N12H)
Mix 2 - Ax3 > Ail 0% 75% 100% (f.mode N12H)
Mix 3 - Ax3 > Ele 0% -125% 100% (f.mode N12H)
Mix 4 - Ax3 > Ele 0% 75% 100% (f.mode N12H)

Like the previous Aux2 channel, I pull the channel, hard to it's bottom limit (wiht Mix 1 and Mix 3). With Mix 2 and 4, I push it back to the dead center.

Now my BD3SX rescue auto-levels on my DX8


Congratulations if you made it to the end of this epic.

Hope this helps people.
After so many years I find a correct answer to use both functions of the 3SX, SL and CR. After programming your setting in my Spectrum DX8 everything works ... A 100 out of 100 for this solution .. Great
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