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Old 10-05-2015, 12:02 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default KDE 700xf 505kv G3 w/Scorpion 160a OPTO

Hi All,

First time posting in this thread. Owned a KDE motor a while back that I had intended to use on my Trex 550 and wasn't very impressed. Don't remember the exact model of the KDE motor but I believe it was a first generation running on 6s lipos. After experience excessive vibes on my T550, I decided to replace w/something else.

Long story short, decided to give the KDE another go so I picked up a KDE 700xf G3 505kv motor installed on a Avant Mostro e700.

Unfortunately... Now I'm experiencing bogging issues. Originally started w/a timing of 5* on a Scorpion Commander V 160a OPTO controller using the controllers internal governor. Changed the timing to Auto and the KDE 700xf G3 505kv motor still feels weak. Bogging down w/a simple pitch pump @ 1850 RPM's and 13* pitch. Got this motor used from the For Sale forum. Could the motor be fried or is the Scorpy controller not able to maximize the motors capabilities?

Thanks in advance,
Byter182
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Old 10-05-2015, 08:15 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Can you give us your complete setup? Scorp gov? We ran this setup for a while. It was poor on power but that was with the scorp gov. If you are using that the power does kind of suck. Also the Pwm rate last I knew in the scorp is set on 8 and couldn't be changed as all scorp motors run on that. That should be 12 for kde. If you are using the scorp gov and have a fbl system that has a gov switch it to that. It will work way better and keep up with the power demands
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Old 10-05-2015, 10:59 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaDon View Post
Can you give us your complete setup? Scorp gov? We ran this setup for a while. It was poor on power but that was with the scorp gov. If you are using that the power does kind of suck. Also the Pwm rate last I knew in the scorp is set on 8 and couldn't be changed as all scorp motors run on that. That should be 12 for kde. If you are using the scorp gov and have a fbl system that has a gov switch it to that. It will work way better and keep up with the power demands
Complete Setup:
Avant Mostro e700
Cyclone 695mm FBL Blades
Align 115mm Tail Blades
Torq 9280 Cyclic Servos
MKS 990 Tail
KDE 700xf G3 505kv motor
Scorpion Commander V 160a OPTO ESC
WR Mini BEC
12s 45c Lipos (Don't remember brand)
Vbar Neo non-vlink FBL unit
Spektrum DX9 Tx

Yeah... It's a bummer that the PWM on the Scorpion controllers are fixed at 8khz. So the PWM really have that much of an impact on KDE motors? How about the timing? If I increase it to 15 do you think that will make a difference? Just a little worried about heat. May try increasing timing a bit to see how that pans out. If not, then I'll change setup to the Neo's external governor as you suggested.
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Old 10-06-2015, 08:03 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Just change the gov for now. That will make a huge difference. If you need more after that then do the timing but the gov will be night and day difference. On the one we had the scorp gov was the worst performing gov I have ever seen
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Old 10-06-2015, 09:00 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by byter182 View Post
Complete Setup:
Avant Mostro e700
Cyclone 695mm FBL Blades
Align 115mm Tail Blades
Torq 9280 Cyclic Servos
MKS 990 Tail
KDE 700xf G3 505kv motor
Scorpion Commander V 160a OPTO ESC
WR Mini BEC
12s 45c Lipos (Don't remember brand)
Vbar Neo non-vlink FBL unit
Spektrum DX9 Tx

Yeah... It's a bummer that the PWM on the Scorpion controllers are fixed at 8khz. So the PWM really have that much of an impact on KDE motors? How about the timing? If I increase it to 15 do you think that will make a difference? Just a little worried about heat. May try increasing timing a bit to see how that pans out. If not, then I'll change setup to the Neo's external governor as you suggested.
You didnt mention your gearing which is a huge factor no matter what ESC you are running. Get it wrong and you lose torque and will bog

I see the 505KV, 12S and 1850rpm, but what is your main gear and pinion size? These G3 KDE motors are powerhouses and shouldn't be bogging easily with proper setup unless your packs cant keep up with it.
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Old 10-07-2015, 02:00 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Xrayted View Post
You didnt mention your gearing which is a huge factor no matter what ESC you are running. Get it wrong and you lose torque and will bog

I see the 505KV, 12S and 1850rpm, but what is your main gear and pinion size? These G3 KDE motors are powerhouses and shouldn't be bogging easily with proper setup unless your packs cant keep up with it.
The Avant Mostro e700 uses a 2-stage gearing system. For head speed purposes, the Avant website recommends using 208.12 teeth count for inputting values into a HS calculator. I'm using a 21 teeth motor pulley giving me a gear ratio of 9.91:1. That day I used 2 Gens Ace 6s 5000ma 30c lipos connected in parallel. Using Mr. Mel's HS Calculator, I got the following HS values:

Throttle 60%: 1899
Throttle 65%: 1971
Throttle 70%: 2043
Throttle 75%: 2116
Throttle 80%: 2188
Throttle 85%: 2260
Throttle 90%: 2332

However, I did not get the HS values presented above. At a 65% throttle curve, my HS was approximately 1850 RPM's and at 80% throttle curve my HS was just over 2000 RPM's measured w/a Hangar 9 Digital Tach meter.

Currently, I have the Scorpion controller's P & I gain set to default which is 5 on both parameters. I'm wondering if tinkering w/the P & I gains will help improve the motors performance. Any thoughts?
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600e Pro Performace Upgrade w/Blue Mini Vbar, 750MX
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Old 10-07-2015, 02:11 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaDon View Post
Just change the gov for now. That will make a huge difference. If you need more after that then do the timing but the gov will be night and day difference. On the one we had the scorp gov was the worst performing gov I have ever seen
Yeah... Starting to sound like that's the best route to go with right now. May try tinkering a bit w/the Scorpy Governors P&I gains. I'm not expecting to get much of an improvement by adjusting gains so I'm already doing my homework on switching over to the Noe's governor.
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Logo 600se w/Silverline Vbar Pro, PowerJive120, Pyro 700-45L
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Old 10-07-2015, 03:20 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by byter182 View Post
That day I used 2 Gens Ace 6s 5000ma 30c lipos connected in parallel.
I'm assuming you meant connected in series?
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Old 10-07-2015, 11:01 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by byter182 View Post
The Avant Mostro e700 uses a 2-stage gearing system. For head speed purposes, the Avant website recommends using 208.12 teeth count for inputting values into a HS calculator. I'm using a 21 teeth motor pulley giving me a gear ratio of 9.91:1. That day I used 2 Gens Ace 6s 5000ma 30c lipos connected in parallel. Using Mr. Mel's HS Calculator, I got the following HS values:

Throttle 60%: 1899
Throttle 65%: 1971
Throttle 70%: 2043
Throttle 75%: 2116
Throttle 80%: 2188
Throttle 85%: 2260
Throttle 90%: 2332

However, I did not get the HS values presented above. At a 65% throttle curve, my HS was approximately 1850 RPM's and at 80% throttle curve my HS was just over 2000 RPM's measured w/a Hangar 9 Digital Tach meter.

Currently, I have the Scorpion controller's P & I gain set to default which is 5 on both parameters. I'm wondering if tinkering w/the P & I gains will help improve the motors performance. Any thoughts?
Its normal for the actual KV to be slightly different than its labeled, so there can be some variation in actual RPM over what is estimated. It only takes a few KV difference to add up.

I'm not getting the same values you are showing using MrMels for the standard throttle curve values. I know the Scorp gov list those particular values when chosen as the gov option, but your gearing setup ungoverned yields about 2400 RPM at 100%, so you would have about 1920 RPM at 80% which is pretty close to your tach readings.

I'm not sure how or why the Scorp claims values that are higher than what the actual gearing allows mathematically, and your actual values seem to reflect this.

Either way, IMO you are one pinion size too big if 1850 is your max targeted governed RPM. I would be using a 20T for your setup. 20T is fine even by Castle ESC gov standards, and the Castle is known to request more gearing overhead than most other governors do.
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Last edited by Xrayted; 10-07-2015 at 12:10 PM..
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Old 10-28-2015, 10:38 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I have the 505xf g3 motor in my KSE 700 goblin and it runs a bit hot at 1800rpm-1900rpm, what are acceptable motor temps taken after flight.?
KSE 700 3 blade 690
stock gearing 1800rpm
YES 160
Vbar Neo
MKS X8 and X6 servos
2200mah Rx lipo
2 x 6S5000 Pulse 45C
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Old 10-29-2015, 08:00 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Anything under 200 degrees from what I understand. If you land and carry back and check it then they will gain some temp before they start cooling down because air movement quit so check right away. Remember if you are just checking by hand you can't go by that. You can't keep your hand on something that is even 130 degrees for very long
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Old 10-29-2015, 02:06 PM   #12 (permalink)
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+1

If you can only touch it for about 1-2 seconds before having to pull back, you are in the 130-140F range which is just fine.

What feels hot to your hand is not really hot at all. Too hot would blister you immediately. Get a cheap IR temp gun if you want to be sure.
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Old 10-29-2015, 02:09 PM   #13 (permalink)
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thanks
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Old 11-04-2015, 04:22 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Get that Vbar gov working. Night and day difference over the very crappy Scorp version. All I can say is I will never run that esc again, but it can be made to work. It just will never be great? Your 45c batts may not be up to the task either. The KDE motors are power houses when setup properly. PWM (pulse width modulation) rates do effect the motors significantly.
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Old 11-04-2015, 08:02 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Luvmyhelis is exactly right on most. Only thing is 45c batteries will work fine. That is all Ryan runs on his helis and they have plenty of power. As far as running the scorpion esc again tho I am like him. No way unless it is the only one made. It will work well with the Vbar gov tho
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Old 11-11-2015, 09:27 AM   #16 (permalink)
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all I fly is 45C packs now also. they perform flawlessly with my KDE motors. I do still have some 65 and 70C TP's left that I fly, but mainly I am flying 45C packs now. they will do just fine.
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Old 11-11-2015, 02:26 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveToFly1 View Post
all I fly is 45C packs now also. they perform flawlessly with my KDE motors. I do still have some 65 and 70C TP's left that I fly, but mainly I am flying 45C packs now. they will do just fine.
same here
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