Nitro or electric in winter?

[jharkin]

Originally Posted by Andy from Sandy

The oil residue is thicker as it is colder so will take a bit more effort to shift perhaps.

For car engines this is a partial factor, but not the main reason. For model engines it’s insignificant.

The main reason that starting is hard in the cold is that the fuel does not vaporize as easily in the colder air. The effect is even more dramatic on glow engines than it is on gas engines, due to methanol much higher latent heat of vaporization.

Originally Posted by fastang

I never owned a nitro but im curious, Do you have to dial in the carb or different fuel mixtures for the cold?

I had a friend that blew up his 2 stroke dirt bike because he ran the same fuel ratio he ran in the warm summer.

Yes. Colder air is denser. Denser air = more oxygen, which in turn requires more fuel to maintain the optimum ratio. So as it gets colder you need to richen up your needles.

[GREYEAGLE]

Engines easily start in the cold if the conditions are correct.

It's wonderful flying long as the wind is not blowing or at least you are sheltered out of the wind. Cold zap's your strength also especially if your clomping around in snow packs.

Going too need a Very good Glow- Starter set up - usually means you got too make it.

Simple : 4-5 : D- size Alkaline : Run a bridge across all the buttons and across all the bottoms: Use solder wick to build the bridge across em - then wrap the pack with 3M -33
The pack could last you years. It's still 1.5 V just the amp's you need and the more Cell's the lower the resistance.

The lubrication package in the fuel may increase in viscosity - hence run rich to get the flow - thru the small diameter fuel lines.

In some fuels you may actually see small flakes forming in your fuel jug. Some paraffin bases will do it . Hermetic sealed jugs are a must do too condensation also : Temp Swing's. In side too out side. It will gather humidity. Get wet.


Expect a drop in performance - do Not Go Lean -do NOT go lean - It's easy to fry a motor in the cold . Don't look for what is not going too be their. In many cases worn motors actually run pretty good - start great ! Fly WITH IN THE ENVELOPE. Have fun with what you brung - contentment. Set Uber rich - save a motor.

Tough to clean stuff also - Just gob's of lube will hang on em - snot " wait till you get back to the bench. Gooier the better .

In many cases motors will actually run too cold - beware of it - and yes they can experience carburetor icing - Nutty stuff. Some individual's actually build a air shield on a plank, to keep the cold air off the front of the cylinder to balance the temp. On a twirly bird you can damp off the exit portion under the air cowl.

Be aware of your fuel viscosity and let it have as much as it wants ! Let it run

Be-careful of sun burn also - = No Bugg's / & Plastic Breaks EASY WHEN IT IS COLD ! SHATTER'S too

[wifeorheli?]

I drag so much stuff to the fuel between a electric and a nitro just wanna keep it simple. We get up to 2-3' of snow on valley floor. Last year I hooked up a little space heater to generator to blow heat on the packs while they were charging but you just can't beat a nitro a nitro being able to refuel up and fly repeat! Thanx for the reply. And whoever said to riches needles is completely correct. The air is more dense meaning it needs more fuel. A lot of guys see it the other way it colder so lean needles to make it th. Hotter. Completely incorrect!

[Dyehard]

Originally Posted by fastang

I never owned a nitro but im curious, Do you have to dial in the carb or different fuel mixtures for the cold?

I had a friend that blew up his 2 stroke dirt bike because he ran the same fuel ratio he ran in the warm summer.

It's been years since I've done any trail riding but in the 70s I did it a lot. Nothing beat a reasonably level field with a foot of snow on it, you could flat track like crazy, sliding foot down with the tail kicked out and the left handlebar end only about two foot off the ground. We never had to change the mixture on those old Yamahas and Suzukis, ever, and never had any engine problem. Same for my old R5C and RD 350 street bikes, I've ridden when we had to dodge the ice patches frozen on the road. Those two cycle trail bikes and street bikes used the same Mikuni slide needle carbs, just different sizes, and they accommodated the change in temperature from summer 90s to winter 20 just fine. With three separate fuel circuits, even simple slide needle carbs are way more advanced than what we use on our model engines. Your friend had something else going on with his bike.

[jharkin]

You probably had your bikes tuned slightly rich in the summer. This is very common, and it was also typical for carburetted cars to be tuned on the rich side of optimum. This leaves quite a bit of margin for error to lean out in the winter without going TOO lean.

(Note that even modern auto EFI system are setup to go from perfect close loop O2 sensor measured 14.7:1 at part throttle to a programmed over rich - sometimes 12
:1 - fixed map at WOT to protect against lean running)

I guarantee you that if you have your engines tuned to the perfect lean peak on an 80F summer day, on a 30F winter day it will be so lean it wont even start. I know this form 20 years of personal experience flying nitro and gas RC all year round in new England.

[jharkin]

Originally Posted by wifeorheli?

And whoever said to riches needles is completely correct. The air is more dense meaning it needs more fuel. A lot of guys see it the other way it colder so lean needles to make it th. Hotter. Completely incorrect!

Yep.. Lots of misinformation and urban legend gets repeated on this forum as gospel. That an a lot of folks know the effects from experience, but dont understand the real cause/theory behind it (like this myth that wont die that rich mix and hard starting is due to thick oil).

We see the same thing in nearly every thread on aerodynamics... when Extrapilot comes in and puts the smack down on people who dont have a clue and just state wild guesses as fact.

EDIT: I realize this train of discussion might come off a bit as argumentative, but I feel its important that we get these basics straight for the new guys coming on here to learn.

[jsbach#1]

I've learned two things over the years in RC with glow motors. #1. When in doubt richen it out. If it's wrong then we safely go the other way. We were on a lake with big picco motors expensive stuff and a friend who had more experience than me barked at me when I said something's fishy I think it's running rich. If something's fishy richen it out first to confirm then go the other way. I've stuck with this and over the years it's yielded some surprising results and very few failures. Including recently I found my YS is running with its high needle at what would seem quite rich making great power and great flight time.

#2. If it's been running fine and suddenly starts acting strange don't start playing with needles. Turn it off go to bench and inspect. Often times plug is faulty.

[Andy from Sandy]

I've learned two things over the years in RC with glow motors

I have seen point 2 so many times.

I have also learnt that once you know the engine has run lean and it is hot it is better to shut it down and let it cool down before adjusting the mixture and starting again.

Once an engine gets overly hot it just seems to stay that way.

I was out today and put another 9 flights on my t-rex 600, OS55.

It sounds great and runs awesome. I have now completed 327 flights of 7:30 to 8 minutes duration from the beginning of the year. I haven't needed to change the bearings yet which is a welcome surprise.

[GREYEAGLE]

If your running a in- line crap trap or a inline filter - remove it -

If your running a Stens clunk or a media, or fiber filter - remove it -

You need the flow.


If your running Ni - Cad's for your RX supply you may wish to up- grade a bit larger -

Ni Cad's have about 1/2 the delivery time when they get cold - They won't give up the Milli Amp's . Figure about 1/2 and watch em like a Hawk . Just install a healthy bigger pack..

Don't even think about a Nickel Metal pack - Their bad enough delivering Amp on command.

You may also wish to use a balloon over your switch : Just put the switch in it it - push and pull it back thru the hole :
If you wish you can bread tie the back side - keeps the snow out of the switch.

[Dyehard]

Originally Posted by jharkin

You probably had your bikes tuned slightly rich in the summer. This is very common, and it was also typical for carburetted cars to be tuned on the rich side of optimum. This leaves quite a bit of margin for error to lean out in the winter without going TOO lean.

(Note that even modern auto EFI system are setup to go from perfect close loop O2 sensor measured 14.7:1 at part throttle to a programmed over rich - sometimes 12
:1 - fixed map at WOT to protect against lean running)

I guarantee you that if you have your engines tuned to the perfect lean peak on an 80F summer day, on a 30F winter day it will be so lean it wont even start. I know this form 20 years of personal experience flying nitro and gas RC all year round in new England.

What I'm saying is most motorcycles are tuned from the factory such that they are very slightly on the rich side of peak, that where the most power is. If you fly an airplane with an EGT, you tune for most power by leaning to peak EGT the richening up by 50 degrees, if you want best economy you go a little past peak EGT. No motorcycle comes tuned to the point that with a temperature drop it starts going dangerously lean, even going from the 90s to the 30s. I can say that with 50 years experience with motorcycles. I still ride them, putting from fifteen to twenty thousand miles a year on them, doing my own maintenance, repair and hop up on them. If anyone has a bike that goes lean enough to self destruct just because they ran it in the winter, they either monkeyed with the carb or they have a maintenance problem that should have been address long before it blew up.

[jharkin]

Originally Posted by Dyehard

What I'm saying is most motorcycles are tuned from the factory such that they are very slightly on the rich side of peak, that where the most power is. If you fly an airplane with an EGT, you tune for most power by leaning to peak EGT the richening up by 50 degrees, if you want best economy you go a little past peak EGT. No motorcycle comes tuned to the point that with a temperature drop it starts going dangerously lean, even going from the 90s to the 30s. I can say that with 50 years experience with motorcycles. I still ride them, putting from fifteen to twenty thousand miles a year on them, doing my own maintenance, repair and hop up on them. If anyone has a bike that goes lean enough to self destruct just because they ran it in the winter, they either monkeyed with the carb or they have a maintenance problem that should have been address long before it blew up.

I know that, and its all true.

It also is not directly relevant to a helicopter engine. If the pilot had tuned it perfect on a hot summer day, it will be leaner than perfect on a 30F winter day and will run better and make more power when re- tuned (richened slightly) for the temp change.

The change is not huge... typically a few clicks on a nitro and 1/16 of a turn or so on a gasser. But its there. My 700 gassers for example will pick up a good 100+rpm of headspeed, or an extra half degree of pitch in the winter once I richen them up for the cold air. I also tend to loose 2-5 minutes of flight time in trade for that extra power.


Again, we are talking the change when the temp makes a huge swing, say 30-50 degrees. We are not talking about chasing the needles day to day here..

[Four Stroker]

Experience beats "engineering" every time. The only problem is that you don't know if experts on the internet have actually had the experience or are just repeating it or completely making it up. I assume that all of the experts on here that you guys worship are complete frauds. My favorite example is the guy who was a "2.4 GHz communications expert" who turned out to be the guy who climbs up the ladder and screws wireless routers to walls.

[jharkin]

Originally Posted by Four Stroker

Experience beats "engineering" every time. The only problem is that you don't know if experts on the internet have actually had the experience or are just repeating it or completely making it up. I assume that all of the experts on here that you guys worship are complete frauds. My favorite example is the guy who was a "2.4 GHz communications expert" who turned out to be the guy who climbs up the ladder and screws wireless routers to walls.

Only when the engineer is not experienced.

There is a lot of real world examples of laymen who thought they knew better than people properly trained in the theory (i.e. degreed engineers) making changes that resulted in catastrophie.

Look up the Hyatt Regency walkway collapse for a perfect example. The engineers designed hte assembly on the right. The builder thought that putting it together as on the left was "just as good" because the shorter rods where easier to source.




Spot the flaw? 114 people died because a contractor thought he "knew better than those engineers" Even worse, the engineers didn't stand their ground and signed off on the change.


This forum is full of both engineers and non-engineers who talk out of their backside. And a number on both sides who are condescending. But just because some school fresh engineers without the benefit of experience have been proven wrong doesn't invalidate theory. And vice versa.

I forget who it was - maybe Rob Lefebere? - who said in a thread last year that when real world experience and a theoretical prediction dont match it does not mean that engineering and physics are fundamentally useless. It just means that particular theory was incorrect and needs revisiting.

[seefest]

Google and the internet have made everyone an "expert" on everything.

As an engineer with a BSME, I will readily admit that some of the worlds greatest inventions and discoveries were constructed/designed/invented by men/women with no degrees.

The Wright brothers are a perfect example. Two bicycle mechanics who beat out the best aeronautical engineers in the world.
That being said, the Wright brothers WERE engineers even though they had no degree.

[learnedthehardway]

Don't know about nitro but I fly every winter here in Michigan and know there's nothing special needed for winter flying.

My heli and lipos bang around in the truck all day and sometimes all week yet I have never experienced any issues or change in performance/flight times during winter.

Best time of year imho. All the parks become private airfields and cool down periods between flights to avoid overheating are no longer necessary. Although they'll probably be replaced by warm up periods in the truck for you.

Might be something to worry about with rx packs on bigger helis but the 500 down helis I've owned have seemed to enjoy the cold rather than be hindered by it. Except for crashing helis with a lot of plastic parts, definitely something to try and avoid lol

[fastang]

Originally Posted by Dyehard

What I'm saying is most motorcycles are tuned from the factory such that they are very slightly on the rich side of peak, that where the most power is. If you fly an airplane with an EGT, you tune for most power by leaning to peak EGT the richening up by 50 degrees, if you want best economy you go a little past peak EGT. No motorcycle comes tuned to the point that with a temperature drop it starts going dangerously lean, even going from the 90s to the 30s. I can say that with 50 years experience with motorcycles. I still ride them, putting from fifteen to twenty thousand miles a year on them, doing my own maintenance, repair and hop up on them. If anyone has a bike that goes lean enough to self destruct just because they ran it in the winter, they either monkeyed with the carb or they have a maintenance problem that should have been address long before it blew up.

Yeah I understand what you are saying. The bike was a Kawi KX250 and a former race bike. Im sure it was tuned to the max for summer racing conditions. We were 14yo kids and knew nothing about tuning. I had a Suzuki 250 Quadracer and never had a problem in the winter.

Like I said, I never owned a nitro but I always heard they were finicky when it comes to temp changes. You guys have given me great insight on how things work in the cold. Thanks

[mattbeau]

Originally Posted by jharkin

Only when the engineer is not experienced.

There is a lot of real world examples of laymen who thought they knew better than people properly trained in the theory (i.e. degreed engineers) making changes that resulted in catastrophie.

Look up the Hyatt Regency walkway collapse for a perfect example. The engineers designed hte assembly on the right. The builder thought that putting it together as on the left was "just as good" because the shorter rods where easier to source.




Spot the flaw? 114 people died because a contractor thought he "knew better than those engineers" Even worse, the engineers didn't stand their ground and signed off on the change.


This forum is full of both engineers and non-engineers who talk out of their backside. And a number on both sides who are condescending. But just because some school fresh engineers without the benefit of experience have been proven wrong doesn't invalidate theory. And vice versa.

I forget who it was - maybe Rob Lefebere? - who said in a thread last year that when real world experience and a theoretical prediction dont match it does not mean that engineering and physics are fundamentally useless. It just means that particular theory was incorrect and needs revisiting.

Sorry but this is all I can think of when reading about your example.

Trust me, i'm an engineer ! (3 min 34 sec)

[GREYEAGLE]

That's actually a example of a excavator operator skill set set - especially the 0 : Lol

try it ! showing off

If he had tracks some will actually load them selves into the back of their very own dump truck - They are that good.

Ask one who drives a Dozer what it's like to cross a ice covered hill { don't do that } ! Yippi

or if We can learn to operate your D-9 in the neighborhood > Right in the Basement !!!!!

Lol ! er -Call the boss we just purchase that house !

[Bladefx]

I may not always agree with the engineer, they provide a very good starting point to any job. From there experience is what separates the professional technicians from the idiots who think they know.

In the field when in doubt call them out.

At least with nitro you have a heat source to warm your hands


Plastic is definitely not winter friendly.
Safer to fly above 32° f / 0°C
But if you do crash it there be less to repair
Thinking more likely a rekit

[newbheliusr]

Originally Posted by bgymr

I don't understand why people say that motors are harder to start in the cold. I never found any trouble with it.

You never lived in Alaska.