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Old 01-17-2018, 10:33 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default tail down vertical tic tocs

I can do fast tic tocs pretty well, but I can't figure out how some of you do an "in place" vertical slow tic toc with the tail basically acting as a pivot more or less staying on one place. How on earth do you not lose altitude? Working on sim does me no good. Still don't get it. Thank you.;
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Old 01-17-2018, 10:41 AM   #2 (permalink)
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It's all about finding the right angle. Banging away on the sticks to tic toc doesnt teach you anything as it doesn't require any more skill than having enough headspeed. The way I teach it to anyone who bothers to ask me is to break the tic toc down as follows

- At the end of each tic and toc stop, hold the heli in that spot for as long as possible, this forces you to find the right angle. If the heli drops your angle is too vertical, if you climb than its isn't vertical enough

- Start and stop the tic and toc with the collective, be fast and aggressive on the stick, pulse the collective with as much collective as you can for the shortest time possible.
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Old 01-17-2018, 11:18 AM   #3 (permalink)
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In going through the class with Todd Bennett try to get your heli to the 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock positions. This should get you the right angle you are looking for. Stop at each position and hold it as long as you can. Too much collective is going to push you around, so you only need enough to not lose altitude.
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Old 01-17-2018, 11:28 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Nick Maxwell One Tank Tip #3: Tic Tocs (6 min 59 sec)
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Old 01-17-2018, 12:08 PM   #5 (permalink)
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A common issue with any kind of tic toc in general is using too much collective. The cyclic is what flies the maneuver, the collective is only there to keep the heli from descending.

Slow the maneuver down into two defined rainbows, then speed it up. Mashing the sticks back and forth is going to do nothing but bog the heli, and lose altitude. When you have full control of rainbows, tighten them up until you get to that desired 10 and 2 o clock positions. It may also help to reduce your headspeed and collective travel, forcing you to fly through the maneuver more.
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Old 01-17-2018, 12:23 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Thanks all. Great video. I can do graceful slow rainbows and stop in place at each end, the starting skill in the video, but the challenge is compressing these to more in place. I seem to have the basics down from the rainbows, just gotta follow this advice to tighten them up.
P.S. I'm REALLY good at stick banging
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Old 01-17-2018, 12:26 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Just do nice smooth moves. Jerking and banging is never a recipe of success here. Before you know it you'll pin that tail.
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Old 01-17-2018, 12:37 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DominicD View Post
be fast and aggressive on the stick, pulse the collective with as much collective as you can for the shortest time possible.
+1. This can be seen in Nick's video at around the 1:10 mark. Watch his left hand on the collective stick giving short jabs to quickly stop the tic (or toc). This quick short jab of collective to bring the model to a clean stop is a skill that takes a long time to master. It eventually makes your flying look very clean in a variety of maneuvers.
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Old 01-17-2018, 12:57 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Tic Tocs take some time to master. They are an exercise of precision and subtlety. Try to avoid stick banging - might work on the sim, but IRL you're going to bog the machine down and are increasing the risk for a crash.

Its all about timing and managing the loading of the head. You need to focus more on your cyclic input and using only as much collective as you need to change direction before you catch it with cyclic on the other side. Using less collective will allow you to unload the head easier while passing through "center" and make the maneuver more crisp and precise. This is counter intuitive, as people tend to add in more collective because the machine is losing altitude.

Here's a good vid on all that:

Rc-heli flight lesson 8... Tick tocks and variations (freddys flight academy) (14 min 56 sec)
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Old 01-17-2018, 01:00 PM   #10 (permalink)
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On my x5 when I do really nice tic tocs, it's damn near silent. No whap whap whap.
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Old 01-17-2018, 01:09 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newbheliusr View Post
On my x5 when I do really nice tic tocs, it's damn near silent. No whap whap whap.
It takes skill to make tic toc sound right. When done right there is this deep bass note it will produce.
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Old 01-17-2018, 01:37 PM   #12 (permalink)
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....with the tail basically acting as a pivot more or less staying on one place....
I don't think this has been answered yet, so I try......

The cyclic rate that you use will determine the 'pivot point'.
For example, a really fast cyclic rate (let's say full stick) will put the pivot point close to the heli's cg. However, a very slow cyclic rate (like what is used in a rainbow) puts the pivot point way below the heli.
Eventually, you can find just the right amount of cyclic to make the tail virtually stay in one place, if that's what you want.
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Old 01-17-2018, 03:36 PM   #13 (permalink)
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will put the pivot point close to the heli's cg

Is this a fail? Should a proper TT have the tail moving the least distance? A vertical TT pivoting on the tail; an aileron TT pivoting around the skids?
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Old 01-17-2018, 03:53 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RCFred View Post
will put the pivot point close to the heli's cg

Is this a fail?
Not in my book, lol! The OP was wanting to know how to get the heli to pivot on the tail, I think because he loved how that looked .
I was explaining how to achieve that.
Im not sure if it really matters.
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Old 01-17-2018, 07:46 PM   #15 (permalink)
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A couple of ways to come at this. One is to make sure that your rainbows are symmetrical, ie at the half way point you are vertical and as your rainbows get smaller the symmetry stays.

I found that the ends of the raibows were very useful to learn the amount of collective required to arrest the momentum for tictocs. It looks like it's a timing thing where too early or too late and the pivot point changes. But more simply the angle of the heli has to be perpendicular to the final direction of motion when the collective is applied.

I like to vary the height of the rainbow's arc to get a feel of the collective required at different attitudes at the end of the rainbow. The faster you want the tictoc to go the more vertical that attitude should be and therefore the shallower the arc should be. For slower tictocs that would mean steeper arc and more horizontal attitude.

The other way to address this is as mentioned to delay applying collective. I tried this before having a good feel as to how to arrest the momentum. However, all that did was change the pivot point with bad effect to maintaining height and position.

It is worth noting another phenomenon that comes into effect when the rainbows become tight enough to be considered tictocs. I've found that when applying solely cyclic there is an additional lift factor that comes into play. It is similar to translational lift, in fact it probably is. When doing a flip it allows the heli to stay at a similar altitude without using collective until the flip is almost complete. I believe this is why the collective can and must be reduced as well as delayed during a tictoc.
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Old 01-18-2018, 07:09 AM   #16 (permalink)
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I do know if this will help. I started by learning to do angel first. For the sample reason that it required a little more control than TT. I now, I'm able to do some pretty nice slow TT. They are not perfect, but look much better and controlled than just banging the sticks. My advice to you will be learn to do angel and the slow more control TT will come almost as second nature.
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Old 01-18-2018, 08:23 AM   #17 (permalink)
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What would be considered an "angel"?
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Old 01-18-2018, 11:11 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
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What would be considered an "angel"?
Opposite of the "devil"
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Old 01-18-2018, 02:25 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Opposite of the "devil"
dang it! that was my line!
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