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Old 02-17-2018, 05:59 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Tons of high end heli have plastic blades. And much larger ones to boot. Carbon fiber isn't the end all.

Really name one?
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Old 02-17-2018, 07:55 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Crashalotjoe View Post
Luca seemed to indicate that he has reproduced the problem (presumably in Vietnam) so it would seem possible to have the same failures even in warm conditions. I agree though, the problem may well be exacerbated by colder temperatures.

I do think that there needs to be a more fool proof fix to this. Relying on people following a series of, lets face it, abnormal set up instructions is not a recipe for success or happy customers because, inevitably, they wonít. Having setup literally dozens of heliís and being confident that the standard processes work well, it would not occur to me that the tail travel needs to be artificially limited to make this thing work.

The use of CF blades may be a solution but that doesnít stop people from fitting nylon blades in the future (they are cheaper and often more colourful so appeal to many).

Unfortunately, unless this can be attributed to faulty blades, the only proper solution is to change the mechanical geometry and/or the tail ratios available to keep the stresses imparted on the tail blades in line with those of other heliís on the market.
He actually says this in his written setup instructions. He says that the tail performance is too high for plastic blades and that if you use plastic blades, you need to reduce the travel.

That's all well and good but that means that a stronger non-plastic blade needs to be included in the kit that's capable of it's own tail performance. The fix he posted is temporary for those blades already out there but he should probably send adequate blades to registered owners and replace those in future kits.

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Old 02-17-2018, 08:15 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Unless I missed it, I didn't see anything in Luca's setup info that was out of the ordinary of any setup. Most people I believe adjust for max travel of their tail servo but this is not correct. There is such a thing as too much travel. He is giving you the info for the precise adjustment. If you want to run it maxed and not adjust as he has posted, that is a risk for your setup. It is not very difficult to follow and doesn't hinder performance. I don't see this as temporary at all.
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Old 02-17-2018, 08:23 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Unless I missed it, I didn't see anything in Luca's setup info that was out of the ordinary of any setup. Most people I believe adjust for max travel of their tail servo but this is not correct. There is such a thing as too much travel. He is giving you the info for the precise adjustment. If you want to run it maxed and not adjust as he has posted, then you are free to buy your own blades to accommodate your settings.
I've setup many, many different helis and it's standard max the travel to binding and back off a few clicks. This is the standard instructions for all the FBL systems ive used as well.

I agree, there may just be too much travel for any tail blade to handle which means a revision to the tail assembly should be made to shorten the throw.

He could just revise the manual and require 80% of physical throw but it's not going to be the norm for a heli build.

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Old 02-17-2018, 08:44 AM   #25 (permalink)
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He actually says this in his written setup instructions. He says that the tail performance is too high for plastic blades and that if you use plastic blades, you need to reduce the travel.

That's all well and good but that means that a stronger non-plastic blade needs to be included in the kit that's capable of it's own tail performance. The fix he posted is temporary for those blades already out there but he should probably send adequate blades to registered owners and replace those in future kits.
This is true but unless the root cause of the problem is fixed, there's a heli on the market that can't accept just any old tail blade or needs a special (non-standard) set up to make weaker tail blades work. This may be ok for a brand new kit but it's not ok for a heli to need special measures when it's perhaps on its second owner or the first owner has forgotten it doesn't conform to the norms.

These things need to conform to a standard like most if not all current heli's in the market requiring a standard/conventional setup and to accept any old blades the owner chooses to fit.
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Old 02-17-2018, 08:55 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Crashalotjoe View Post
This is true but unless the root cause of the problem is fixed, there's a heli on the market that can't accept just any old tail blade or needs a special (non-standard) set up to make weaker tail blades work. This may be ok for a brand new kit but it's not ok for a heli to need special measures when it's perhaps on its second owner or the first owner has forgotten it doesn't conform to the norms.

These things need to conform to a standard like most if not all current heli's in the market requiring a standard/conventional setup and to accept any old blades the owner chooses to fit.
I was referring to the "fix" not the manual. That's what I was getting at, the travel needs to be physically revised/limited by design or a stronger blade needs to be produced and included. There shouldn't be different throws for different blades.

Word is they are launching a shim kit so I think they know folks are wanting to use standard root carbon blades.

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Old 02-17-2018, 09:00 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Unless I missed it, I didn't see anything in Luca's setup info that was out of the ordinary of any setup. Most people I believe adjust for max travel of their tail servo but this is not correct. There is such a thing as too much travel. He is giving you the info for the precise adjustment. If you want to run it maxed and not adjust as he has posted, that is a risk for your setup. It is not very difficult to follow and doesn't hinder performance. I don't see this as temporary at all.
Which would be a halfway reasonable argument 'if' it worked, but a couple of days after the instruction was published there is already just a report of failure even after following the instructions to the letter.
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Old 02-17-2018, 09:04 AM   #28 (permalink)
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I do think that there needs to be a more fool proof fix to this. Relying on people following a series of, lets face it, abnormal set up instructions is not a recipe for success or happy customers because, inevitably, they wonít.
That's spot on. Not everyone who buys a heli reads these forums and searches though the posts looking for 'special' setup instructions.
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Old 02-17-2018, 09:12 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Not doubting what you are saying - but they're flying in the snow in these videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=7cvRDMKDYm0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=upCm5DSit7g
I'm not saying that low temperature is the only issue. There will be other factors at play such as the setup issues that Luca discusses. Maybe also some of the blades have minor imperfections in the nylon that compounds the problem?

Also the brittleness of nylon is strongly effected by moisture absorbance. Nylon is hygroscopic meaning it absorbs water. When it has is kept in humid conditions it absorbs water over time and becomes flexible and less brittle. If kept in dry conditions it gets harder and more brittle. This is why the old school trick of boiling nylon props came from.

You could try boiling the Oxy tail blades for ten minutes or so then leave to 'soak' in the water overnight.
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Old 02-17-2018, 09:17 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Which would be a halfway reasonable argument 'if' it worked, but a couple of days after the instruction was published there is already just a report of failure even after following the instructions to the letter.
I didn't put it together at first but that particular incident was an ejection issue. 100% likely a blade failure. Lucas fix was regarding blades snapping but not root failure but from lateral forces such as oscillation.

That being said there's 3-5 reports on here about root ejections. That's a problem but that's a different problem to address.

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Old 02-17-2018, 09:18 AM   #31 (permalink)
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That's spot on. Not everyone who buys a heli reads these forums and searches though the posts looking for 'special' setup instructions.
Yes, and in addition, most people will be referring to the FBL setup instructions when doing the heli setup and in most cases the FBL manual will tell you to set the throws up to the maximum reachable before binding (including the Spartan Vortex - the Oxy FBL of choice).
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Old 02-17-2018, 09:22 AM   #32 (permalink)
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I just used the plastic blades I was using on my 450 pro with full throws on tail slider without problem. I may be wrong but I don't trust the stock blades as they ejected both the 68 and 62 mm.
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Old 02-17-2018, 10:50 AM   #33 (permalink)
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I thought the point of buying an Oxy is that it is not your standard Heli. That it can be set up for a pro doing competitive flying with all top of line parts and blades, pushing it to the edge of the envelope, or it can be tamed down for a newb on budget.

Do you really need to limit what it can do in max config?
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Old 02-17-2018, 10:52 AM   #34 (permalink)
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I thought the point of buying an Oxy is that it is not your standard Heli. That it can be set up for a pro doing competitive flying with all top of line parts and blades, pushing it to the edge of the envelope, or it can be tamed down for a newb on budget.

Do you really need to limit what it can do in max config?
No but it should be capable with the parts in a $375 450 helicopter kit.

I have no doubt they will make it right. Getting a bug is common with early adopters.

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Old 02-17-2018, 11:18 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by drparker151 View Post
I thought the point of buying an Oxy is that it is not your standard Heli. That it can be set up for a pro doing competitive flying with all top of line parts and blades, pushing it to the edge of the envelope, or it can be tamed down for a newb on budget.

Do you really need to limit what it can do in max config?
No, it's about making it do what it needs to do without breaking stuff. Fixing the tail issue, whether permanently or temporarily using Luca's setup fix will not limit its abilities (as Luca has demonstrated in his videos), just make it reliable without chucking its tail blades all over the place.
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Old 02-17-2018, 11:23 AM   #36 (permalink)
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What I find interesting is that this was not identified in pre-production testing. There were clearly thousands of flights by some very skilled pilots flying very high power setups, and it seems that it did not come up.

That suggests a late design change might be the culprit.

Root cause failure analysis is always a "fun" exercise. Frustrating for early adopters, but I have to say I don't feel too badly. If you buy a kit from the first production run, there is always some risk. (I bought an early Oxy 2 knowing that risk. I would have bought an early Oxy 4 except that I don't have time to build or fly one at the moment...)

It doesn't matter which brand - anyone can have a problem, and there is usually something. With Oxy, or one of the other solid brands, you know they will get it sorted. If you don't want to run the risk, just don't buy that first production run!

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Old 02-17-2018, 11:37 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Crashalotjoe View Post
No, it's about making it do what it needs to do without breaking stuff. Fixing the tail issue, whether permanently or temporarily using Luca's setup fix will not limit its abilities (as Luca has demonstrated in his videos), just make it reliable without chucking its tail blades all over the place.
Sorry, no. If the design of the Oxy 4 has so much throw that it's stalling tail blades, it's a design flaw. Its a hard word to swallow but 100% of helis have some quirk like this.

I'm with you, the tail will perform well even at 80% throws but ideally this would have been the travel limit mechanically.

It will get corrected either way either mechanically or in the manual. If he has specific setup directions for this it will be pretty unique vs most other builds.

I'm 100% happy with mine, no issues to date and if there is I know it will be taken care of by Luca and his team in the long run.

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Old 02-17-2018, 11:42 AM   #38 (permalink)
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It doesn't matter which brand - anyone can have a problem, and there is usually something. With Oxy, or one of the other solid brands, you know they will get it sorted. If you don't want to run the risk, just don't buy that first production run!
Yes, in the big scheme of things this is a minor issue that can be fixed, initially with Luca's workaround and hopefully permanently in the future. Oxy are incredibly responsive when it comes to issues but it has to be said that previous releases (O2 & O3) have been pretty much spot on from the outset. An impressive track record to date.
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Old 02-17-2018, 11:52 AM   #39 (permalink)
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What I find interesting is that this was not identified in pre-production testing. There were clearly thousands of flights by some very skilled pilots flying very high power setups, and it seems that it did not come up.

That suggests a late design change might be the culprit.

Root cause failure analysis is always a "fun" exercise. Frustrating for early adopters, but I have to say I don't feel too badly. If you buy a kit from the first production run, there is always some risk. (I bought an early Oxy 2 knowing that risk. I would have bought an early Oxy 4 except that I don't have time to build or fly one at the moment...)

It doesn't matter which brand - anyone can have a problem, and there is usually something. With Oxy, or one of the other solid brands, you know they will get it sorted. If you don't want to run the risk, just don't buy that first production run!

100% right. The Oxy 3 had a few quirks at launch. I still say Oxy has the best customer service team hands down.

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Old 02-17-2018, 10:04 PM   #40 (permalink)
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After my blade ejection(one snapped and one broke out at the root),I used a set of 62mm halo cf blades with one small shim to take up the gap(2 wouldnt fit).flew 5 packs earlier and not an issue.the oxy 4 is a beautiful smooth heli,hopefully something gets sorted out regarding the tail.nothing ruins your confidence more than the thought of your heli failing while flying.I feel for the price of this quality kit($518 aus)we shouldnt have to worry about tail blades failing.
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