Fuel, Coleman / truefuel / SEF / PUMP Fuel

[1St.imer]

Just wondering witch fuel you guys are running, I seem to not be able to make up my mind only because Coleman is only nearly 50 Octane.

I don't want to run PUMP Fuel but I do want to get the performance the engine should produce.
TRM 300 Whiplash ed.

Im leaning towards SEF fuel. Can anyone speed some light ?

[fastflyer20]

In my tests Coleman actually produced slightly more power than pump gas. I have burned over 100 gallons of Coleman so far. Coleman or any white fuel burns extremely clean with less smell if that is a concern. Walmart has Crown brand for around $8 a gallon, way cheaper than Coleman.

SEF is not necessary, but will work, I suspect it will make less power.

If running pump gas, ethanol free is the safest to use. There are many different blends across the country, some pilots run gas with ethanol successfully, some do not.

[1St.imer]

That's what's Confusing to me Coleman fuel octane is around 50, SEF fuel Is around 89 90 Octane. Even at 89 octane this is still considered to be low Octane fuel. I know these engines perform better on low octane fuel, Dropping down to 50 octane as Coleman fuel is just for some reason doesn't add up to the Optimum octane. Would this add more heat ?
Going up In octane 90, and above is pointless I totally understand that.
Using SEF should not smell as bad as pump gas. This is really my concern as well as performance.
I want to pick a mixture and stick with it as I have no experience with gas engines and this SEF fuel and it's partners is all new to me until last night after seeing it at Wal-Mart and lowes right on the shelf readily available.
I don't mind paying 10$ more for real gas Compared to white fuel.
If I choose to use Coleman and then use the SEF and switch back and forth ECT is this ok ?
Or is it like nitro engines where you should stay with the same nitro content always ?

[beltfedbrowning]

Diesel is around 50 octane. It produces significantly more power than gasoline. It depends on how the engine was constructed. Octane is not always power.
Another way to look at octane is that a lower octane number has a faster burn rate. It has a better ability to expel energy faster.

[1St.imer]

I think I'm going to go with Coleman fuel, Just wondering if switching between white gas to Pump gas here and there will creat any issues ?

[fastflyer20]

They have proven to be interchangeable.

[beltfedbrowning]

Coleman is much better for storage of the helicopter. It won't eat the carb.

[Hovergirl01]

I initially ran Coleman because of where my helis are stored. Probably around 12-15 gallons. I then switched to pump gas and noticed no difference in performance or needle settings.
I went back to Coleman because of the stink in my car. It was also aggravating my asthma. (2 gallons)
I then went back to Coleman or Crown (Walmart). There is no discernible difference in the two except Crown is between 4 and $5 dollars per gallon cheaper.
I figured using the Redline oil and Crown, I’m around $1.25 per flight.
Flights are typically 15-18 minutes 8 flights per gallon.

Kandace

[jharkin]

Originally Posted by beltfedbrowning

Diesel is around 50 octane. It produces significantly more power than gasoline. It depends on how the engine was constructed. Octane is not always power.
Another way to look at octane is that a lower octane number has a faster burn rate. It has a better ability to expel energy faster.

Diesel fuel dos not have 50 octane rating, it has a 50 cetane rating. Its a different scale and is basically the inverse of octane rating.

Octane rates a fuels resistance to detonation. Cetane rates the fuels ability to detonate. Diesel is rated this way because a diesel engine works completely different from gasoline and ignition is achieved by compression alone - basically you WANT a diesel to detonate. It could not run if it didn't.

Converted to the octane scale, diesel fuel ratings would be extremely how sometheting like 20 or less.


Octane has nothing to do with power. Higher octane fuels usually have less chemical energy. Higher octane allow the engine designer to run higher compression and more aggressive timing, and that makes more power, its not an intrinsic quality of the fuel itself.

As for diesel... To say it makes "more power" you have to quantify what you mean. Diesels are more thermally efficient and extract more usable energy (energy = power over time) from the volume of fuel, but they tend to make much less total horsepower out of the same displacement, run slower rpms, and weigh much more. They typically make far more torque however, and lots of people... even guys who build race cars... confuse torque and power (torque x= power).

Originally Posted by 1St.imer

That's what's Confusing to me Coleman fuel octane is around 50, SEF fuel Is around 89 90 Octane. Even at 89 octane this is still considered to be low Octane fuel. I know these engines perform better on low octane fuel, Dropping down to 50 octane as Coleman fuel is just for some reason doesn't add up to the Optimum octane. Would this add more heat ?

"low" octane is relative. The octane is only low if its less than the engine needs to run. And remember that there are different ways to measure octane. The Zenoah manual says 90, but remember that was written in Japan - the Japanese (and most of Europe) label fuel by research octane (RON), and that is a different scale than the USA standard (RON+MON/2). "90 octane regular" you would see at a gas station in Japan or Europe is equal to 84 octane in the US. So basically any cheap gas here in the states works fine in these engines.

Originally Posted by 1St.imer

Or is it like nitro engines where you should stay with the same nitro content always ?

??? You can change nitro content in a glow engine. For small changes within the manual recommendations (like giong from 20% to 30%) you just need to retune. If you make a big change outside of hte recommended range (like taking a 30% enigne and trying to run it on 10%) you might need to add/remove shims or change to a different plug heat range.

Same thing for gas engines... A massive hcange of octane rating might require adjusting the ignition timing but as people have shown these Zenoahs are very tolerant of running on anything from 55octane Coleman fuel to avgas without much more than carb tweaking...

Originally Posted by fastflyer20

If running pump gas, ethanol free is the safest to use. There are many different blends across the country, some pilots run gas with ethanol successfully, some do not.

Funny thing is , in 10+ years of running two stroke and small yard engines Ive never made any effort to get ethanol free, and Ive never had a single problem. Ive never touched the carb in my chainsaw and it sometimes sits a year between runs. No issues whatsoever.

Ethanol fears are blown way out of proportion IMHO.

Originally Posted by beltfedbrowning

Coleman is much better for storage of the helicopter. It won't eat the carb.

Again, mostly an urban legend. As long as the carb is less than 20 years old its made with synthetic rubber parts (viton and teflon) that are ethanol safe. I let my gear sit in storage for months at a time with zero issues.


Its your money but I never understood why you guys want to spend 5-10x the cost on fuel . If I was spending that Id rather just go back to nitro and get the power to go with it....

[Eury]

You don’t understand why people would spend more on Coleman? Do you have a working nose? That’s the reason. My helis are in my car and my home, they do not smell with Coleman, they do smell with gas. Maybe that’s OK with you, it isn’t with me, and the constant bitching from my wife when I ran regular gas in my 1005 way back tells me it’s not just me. As for cost, I filled up my car yesterday and it was $2.59 a gallon. Bought a couple jugs of Crown (the Walmart brand white gas) last month for $7 each. That’s not even close to 5-10x the cost of gas, and it doesn’t approach the $33 a gallon for the 30% nitro I run in my glow helis.

[Hovergirl01]

Originally Posted by Eury

You don’t understand why people would spend more on Coleman? Do you have a working nose? That’s the reason. My helis are in my car and my home, they do not smell with Coleman, they do smell with gas. Maybe that’s OK with you, it isn’t with me, and the constant bitching from my wife when I ran regular gas in my 1005 way back tells me it’s not just me. As for cost, I filled up my car yesterday and it was $2.59 a gallon. Bought a couple jugs of Crown (the Walmart brand white gas) last month for $7 each. That’s not even close to 5-10x the cost of gas, and it doesn’t approach the $33 a gallon for the 30% nitro I run in my glow helis.

+1

The smell in the car and even in the garage is just more than I care to contend with. Let’s not forget what it does in regards to my Asthma!
That’s why I am more than content to pay a bit extra for the Crown/Coleman.

Kandace

[fastflyer20]

Originally Posted by jharkin

Funny thing is , in 10+ years of running two stroke and small yard engines Ive never made any effort to get ethanol free, and Ive never had a single problem. Ive never touched the carb in my chainsaw and it sometimes sits a year between runs. No issues whatsoever.

Ethanol fears are blown way out of proportion IMHO.

Again, mostly an urban legend. As long as the carb is less than 20 years old its made with synthetic rubber parts (viton and teflon) that are ethanol safe. I let my gear sit in storage for months at a time with zero issues.

Its your money but I never understood why you guys want to spend 5-10x the cost on fuel . If I was spending that Id rather just go back to nitro and get the power to go with it....

I am not sure why your always trying to convince us that your way is the only way. I would not be flying gassers if it were not for Coleman. Cost isn’t even a part of the discussion for me. My wife’s sensitive nose wins that battle.

I am also very happy for you to not have had any ethonol issues, your lucky. May be the blends sold in your area or the engines your using it in. I have experienced issues in small engines and a friend that owns a small engine repair shop is dealing with it all the time. When all he does is put in ethanol free gas and an engine then runs correctly it’s pretty clear to know the root cause. Please don’t say others will not have any issues because you have not, that is misleading.

[GREYEAGLE]

Pretty Nutty : The Urban Legends!

More than the smell > Also Please Note : WARNING >

Most small engine manufactures will not cover ANY warranty issues if they detect it's use .
They have a right too also - Their Business / Their Call : Good For THEM > protection from the clueless on proper operation and proper adjustments and care.

White Gas / Naphtha / Coleman / Ozark / Crown : Is a FEW steps higher in the refinery cracking tower process. A purity issue - it is consistent from can too can - yes it should cost more too < You get what you pay for >

GAS -O -LINE : Is actually a waste by product " GASEOUS " from the refining process.

Depending on the season / location / EPA reg's and distribution - it is Very inconstant especially with the wild combinations of additives.

Some can be near JUNK of extended periods of time ! Why products such as Stabil and Octane additives are used for storage or just too get a carburated Auto Engine to operate correctly.

Individuals that have large investments in small power equipment get real picky especially if you make living with them. Last thing you want is for a struggle with a top handle saw 80 feet up in a tree !

Ethanol - Is pretty much a Non -Refined Grain Alcohol: Full of water and MORE !

To determine ? If it has a effect on small engines ?? Stop by your local small engine / mower > Ect >>>> Repair Shop Lol [ BUSINESS IS GOOD ! ] Check the BACK lot !
Or go by the Local Bike Shop since it's spring - Their stacking Up !

WHY ??? " Ask a Googlenaut "

Naptha does have draw backs - But that is Karnal Knowledge - or Intellectual Property.

It can drive you Nutt's !!! - It's more of a Lubrication / Carburetor problem - Seasonal TOO
You may have too deal with it a couple times a year or be Patience ! Think in advance
It is no where near the permanent - carb replacement issue that Ethanol causes.

You want crazy ? put some Naptha in a Four Stoke Lawn Mower !! Nutt's !!!
You won't do it TWICE !!!

[Toxic Al]

I have been in the Motorcycle industry for aprox 28 before departing, as a tech and
a performance engine builder. Mr Harkin is correct about octane, it is the compress-ability of the fuel or its resistance to burn which is why when I build any kind of engine the fuel parameters dictate my compression ratios or vice versa as well as timing advance. The Zenoah motors we run have low compression ratios to begin with compared to the bigger brothers( motorcross ) which have considerably higher compression ratios and sometimes much higher when modified for high octane race fuels.
When the motors are ported for higher timing(exhaust) the compression ratio drops further than stk in most cases because compression ratios are not measured like 4 stroke engines. We use the "effective compression ratio" which is measured from the top of the exhaust port to TDC, not full stroke due to the fact the motor does not compress until the exhaust closes. The higher the timing the lower the compression becomes unless the head is re-configured to compensate for it.
The issue with ethanol is a multi tiered problem, the ethanol is hydroscopic "absorbs water" which will stay mixed until over saturation when it separates. Alcohol also attacks and will dry out rubber which can effect a few internal parts( rubber and or rubberish ).
In untreated fuel,( no fuel stabilizer or 2 cycle oil ) fuel has a low shelf life of aprox 4-6 weeks from the refinery then it will start to turn. I can't tell you how many carb cleans I did on a weekly basis, with oil it will last much longer but coleman lasts a very long time. The additives that are in gas that let the alcohol bond with the fuel are very nasty and cause quite a bit of the issues with the carbs(with pumps and diaphragms) and gumming up tiny pilot jets and other metering orifices .
I don't fly as much as I like and my helis are in my room and my wife has no idea I ran them that day or ever. The smell is a major concern for me as is the consistency, if you buy gas you need to make sure the station is high traffic which will up the chance the fuel is much more fresh due to refueling the tanks more often.
It is your choice what you want run each has benefits and drawbacks, weigh them both and make a decision that suits your needs.

Peace, AL

[1St.imer]

Yesterday I walked into my local tractor supply store and to my surprise I found 40:1 and 50:1 “VP” small engine fuel. So I purchased their last 3 gallons of 40:1 @ 19.98 figured it was at least cheaper than going to VP direct.
Then I asked them to restock their supply hopefully they do.

Does anyone know is the Vp small engine fuel the same as or comparable to their VP power mix ?

Also in my whiplash edition 300 is it ok to switch to the Vp small engine 40:1 if I were running Coleman with Amsoil at 32:1 ?

[1St.imer]

For all who are interested,


They are not the same. Powermix 40:1 is performance blend designed for the "gassers" also known as large scale models utilizing the small two-stroke engines. PowerMix is an oxygenated fuel and uses a much higher quality oil. We do this to take advantage of the easy carburetor (needles) vs fixed settings that your standard weed wacker engines have. I hope this clears up your concerns or questions, feel free to give me a call at (210) 852-4552 to discuss.

Best Regards,

Tommy

[jharkin]

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