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Old 04-15-2018, 01:05 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Harmony between Kontronik Kosmik 200 and KDE 700XF

Yo high, I was flying my KDE 700XF in conjunction with the YGE 160HV (with 5deg timing) 12S in my Rush 700 and the ESC after flight did become only warm and not even near hot. Now I have removed the KDE 700XF motor and put it into my Chronos 700 12S setup in conjunction with the Kosmik 200.

After flight the ESC becomes real hot, as hot that I cannot touch it anymore. In order to cool it down I did add a fan on the ESC but it did not resolve the issue. The Kosmik is running on autotiming but as it is a 200A ESC it should remain cool compared to the YGE 160HV ESC.

I wanted to ask what kind of experience you guys have had with KDE Motors and Kosmik in order that I can find a solution. Might be the KDE motor not a good fit for Kontronik ESCs?

Thanks for your feedbacks.
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Old 04-15-2018, 01:15 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Iím using a KDE700/535G3 with a Kosmik 160 on a Forza 700. Motor runs warm but the Kosmik is always cool. Can always keep my hand on the motor after a flight. Might be worth having a chat with Patrick or email KDE?
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Old 04-16-2018, 04:02 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Hi Mike,

May I ask you, do you use autotiming on your Kosmik and what did you put for RM Wind Resistance ? I have put 9 as in the specs of the KDE 700 XF 535 G3 it says 0.009 Ohms.

Thanks.
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Old 04-17-2018, 12:14 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Hi Smackdown
Just did mode1 and 4 programming on the Kosmik, so that would be auto timing. Havenít adjusted anything else apart from the bec voltage.
I initially ran firmware version 4.4 with no problems, but have since upgraded to 4.12 for telemetry.
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Old 04-18-2018, 08:00 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Find someone like the guy that just responded with known good numbers from making that motor and the Kosmik play together. If the esc is getting that hot, its next move will be an in flight shut down. With Patrick's passing, I'm not sure how KDE is directing this kind of question. As implied above, the autotiming does not play well will all non Kontronik motors.

Ben Minor
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Old 04-18-2018, 09:16 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I have received some other imput to change the Ri from 9 to 4 and then increase slowly to 6,8 or 9.

Apparently the Autotiming is not the best setup for KDE Motors.

After contacting KDE Direct and explaining the issue, KDE Direct replied with this quote:

--------------
I can not diagnose why the ESC is getting overly hot, we have used the ESC before, but it was about a year ago. A few suggestions below for you:

There are no parameters you must change, as the KDE700XF-535-G3 is compatible with the stock setup, including the Auto-Timing and other functions.

Definitely update the KOSMIK to the latest firmware, just so you are running the latest, including the optimizations for the "YY" windings that the G3 series motors use.
----------

I will go experimenting next days with 5, 10, 15degree fixed timing and changing Ri to 4, 6, 8. Hopefully, I can figure out a good setup.
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Old 04-18-2018, 09:29 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Which 700XF are you using exactly?

There has been issues in the past with Kosmik not liking KDE motors, especially the pre-Gen3 versions that were 8 pole I believe. The 10 poles shouldn't be an issue.
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Old 04-18-2018, 12:30 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Hi, it’s the KDE 700XF 535 G3

cheers
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Old 04-18-2018, 03:22 PM   #9 (permalink)
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This is the response I got from Patrick in July 2014, when I was asking about using a Kosmik or waiting for the Jive Pro.

Hey Mike,

I personally would do with the KOSMIK 160, itís a proven setup and works extremely well. Weíve been running the KDE700XF-G3 series with the KOSMIKs, and they run flawless together, itís an excellent setup and industry-leading. Auto-Timing is working flawlessly, and you can push the helicopter hard without worrying about shutdowns or other concerns. The JIVE PRO 120 looks good as well, but itís untested and sure to have some teething issues when first released, so Iím a fan of waiting and going with a system known to be working.

Thanks for supporting the KDE Direct brand and have a great week!

Thanks,
Patrick
Owner, KDE Direct

R.I.P.
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Old 04-18-2018, 07:41 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Ben View Post
Find someone like the guy that just responded with known good numbers from making that motor and the Kosmik play together. If the esc is getting that hot, its next move will be an in flight shut down. With Patrick's passing, I'm not sure how KDE is directing this kind of question. As implied above, the autotiming does not play well will all non Kontronik motors.

Ben Minor
Forgive me, but Patrick is no longer with us?!?!?!

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Old 04-18-2018, 11:34 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Yes, hence the R.I.P.
The KDE700XF-535-G3 is a 5.6kw motor with a 126 amp max continuous / 250 amp peak current draw. The motors currently being sold are still the G3s, so are unlikely to have changed since Patrickís 2014 comment. If Iím running cool with a 160 Kosmick, it stands to reason that the 200 should be under a lot less stress.
The 535 motor timing is given as 5 to 15 degrees, and PWM as 8 to 32kHz.
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Old 04-19-2018, 05:55 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but as a general rule, doesn't:-

Timing

Higher timing will make the motor run hotter, and the ESC should be around the same or a little cooler, and vice versa.

PWM

Higher PWM will make the ESC run hotter, and the motor may run cooler and smoother with a higher PWM. A lower PWM is easier on the ESC and it will run cooler, but the motor may run a little hotter, and not as smoothly.

Try running your Kosmik 200 at a lower PWM setting?

MB
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Old 04-19-2018, 02:18 PM   #13 (permalink)
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On Kosmik there is no option to modify PWM as the ESC does calculate it automatically, there are only options to choose autotiming or set a specific Timing. Although there is an option to input Ri (Ohms). 4 is standard, I have put 9 for 0.009 Ohms according to the Motor Specs from KDE.

I used to calculate PWM and Timing this way with good results, normally.

PWM-Rate
KV * Volt * Pole / 20
535 * 50.4 (loaded lipo) * 10 / 20 = 14khz

And for Timing
Pole * 2 - 2,5
10 * 2 - 2,5 = 17,5
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Old 04-19-2018, 06:06 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I must confess that I've never even looked at the specs of the Kosmik 200 ESC, it's WAY out of my budget, but I am amazed that you can't manually set the PWM frequency. That suggests to me that the ESC's firmware will certainly work more efficiently with some winding configurations over others.

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Old 04-20-2018, 03:53 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Kontronik Escs will run any brushless motor that has decent processing and mechanics such as equal magnet distance,Balance etc.The motors that dont run well on auto timing usually have unequal magnet dimensions and/or poor back emf regardless of termination type D or YY as the ESC reads the unpowered phase to know the rotor position , When looking at the sine wave on the ossilliscope its easy to see why some motors dont run well on autotiming.Some of these motors run great by a rewind if it was mechanically up to spec or replacement for mechanical defect , That said most motors today 99 % run great on auto timing . Kontronik motors are machined, assembled ,inspected and tested at the factory in Germany.

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Old 04-27-2018, 04:11 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Hey Smackdown
Had the laptop out, so took a look at my Kosmik settings.
ESC is on firmware 4.10
Running auto timing with governor
P-part is 4
Ri-Comp is 4mOhm
Min PWM is 1%
Slewrate Pos is 8000ms
Slewrate Neg is 4000ms

Hope this helps
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Old 04-27-2018, 04:16 AM   #17 (permalink)
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MB
Kosmik programming allows you to choose fixed timing if really needed, and can be set anywhere between 0 and 30 degrees.
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Old 04-29-2018, 02:51 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike656 View Post
Hey Smackdown
Had the laptop out, so took a look at my Kosmik settings.
ESC is on firmware 4.10
Running auto timing with governor
P-part is 4
Ri-Comp is 4mOhm
Min PWM is 1%
Slewrate Pos is 8000ms
Slewrate Neg is 4000ms

Hope this helps
Hi Mike,

Thanks for communicating your setup. May I ask you why did you choose 4mOhm for Ri when KDE is stating that the motor does run on 9mOhms?

Thanks.
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Old 05-01-2018, 08:41 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Hi Smackdown
Those were the settings after I did the mode 1 and mode 4 programming. Motor runs warmer than the esc, but not hot so havenít felt the need to change.
I am running 30c and 50c Opti 5000 packs, and very occasionaly get a low voltage warning - set at 30 volts. Batteries are barely warm after a flight.
Just thinking about your batteries, voltage sags can lead to higher current draws. The motor is rated for 250 amps peak, but the 200 esc could be trying to supply more?
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Old 05-09-2018, 09:56 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Hi Mike,

I think you are running your Kosmik on a very old firmware, you should plug it to your computer and download the latest one.

4mOhms is the standard settings of the Kosmik, but when KDE is stating that the motor runs on 9mOhms then you should also apply it to your ESC.

I think the reason why my Kosmik runs hot is because of the Autotiming, means that the ESC with Autotiming tries to get the best out of the motor and therefore it runs on its limit.

I guess a fix timing will change the heating, but have to try it out first.
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