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Old 05-03-2018, 12:59 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Just wanting to get a sense for what everyone is using on their larger Logos? There's been a debate for years whether red thread-lock has it's place in this hobby.

While assembling the balls on the swash on my new 550 - it got me thinking if it'd be wise to step up from my usual Blue 243 and use something a tad stronger.

Ended up using the SAB green retaining locker, as it's still removable but a bit stronger than the blue.

How about things like spindles, set screws etc. You guys comfortable using Blue 243 in all instances? Any issues with screws backing out?

Will say, it's been nice building a kit with so many nyloc nuts! Love this Logo so far, I can see more in my future
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Old 05-03-2018, 02:36 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I've used blue exclusively from my Logo 400se to the 800 with zero issues.
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Old 05-03-2018, 11:32 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Its more personal preference I suppose. I go with red on pretty much everything, especially rotating assemblies like the main rotor and tail rotor, swash, grub screw (pinion and tail rotor), etc.

I use a modest amount of red as opposed to a liberal amount of blue. The trick is to wipe excess loctite away with your fingers and leave only a little bit left in the threads.

There has been 2nd hand airframes i've taken apart where it seems like the guy dipped all hardware in a glass of loctite. In that case, yea, they're never going to come out. I had to easy-out 4 bolts from the airframe and use a heat gun everywhere else just to get it apart. No reason to apply that much loctite, blue or otherwise.

Again, the key is in how you apply it. With a modest amount of red, in my experience, it holds tight with very little loctite applied. Just a small amount of heat will cause the thread engagement to "break" when trying to back stuff out. Once it clicks and breaks hold, the screw comes right out. Red is honestly not that much stronger than blue if you apply it in the correct amounts.
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Old 05-03-2018, 12:04 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Its super rare for a logo to loosen bolts because of how light and vib absorbing the frame is so blue loctite is more than enough
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Old 05-04-2018, 12:25 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xcellfury View Post
Its super rare for a logo to loosen bolts because of how light and vib absorbing the frame is so blue loctite is more than enough
+1: i do have 4 Logos here in the moment... including the ones i've owned before, none of them has ever seen something other than a modest amount of blue loctite (just in the threads). was different with my Aligns before
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Old 05-04-2018, 07:50 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
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How about things like spindles, set screws etc. You guys comfortable using Blue 243 in all instances? Any issues with screws backing out?
Yes. Just make sure the threads are clearn and free of any grease or oil.
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Old 05-04-2018, 08:44 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Appreciate the input gentleman. I degrease everything, find those small dental brushes (un-flavored of course ha!) work well for cleaning threaded holes as well.

Iím so OCD I ensure Iíve got fresh 243 for every build, within reason - as Henkal recommends tossing tube after 2 years. Bit wasteful, and perhaps overkill, but good peace of mind.
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Old 05-04-2018, 09:24 AM   #8 (permalink)
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I have been using the blue stick for about 10 years now. I only use the green sleeve retainer on sleeve fits (bearings to journals). I used the Red ONCE on a clutch fan hub. Never again. That thing was near impossible to remove. Blue is all I use now on anything. Current 2 yr old logo 700 included. included. As far as I know the stick doesn’t go bad. So no waste.
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Old 05-06-2018, 03:50 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Loctite 243 have worked flawlessly on all my helis exept the rotorhub bolt of my Exo.
I even have the same swash that came with my Logo 500 3D i bought i 2011 in my 600SX today without ever having a ball come loose.
And if you ever use red loctite, be prepared to never getting that bolt back out again without heating it.
I tested on an M5 bolt and a nut and after curing over night it took comsiderable force to get the nut to loosen up.
Now imagin that being a small hex head in a tight space with plastic nearby.
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Old 05-08-2018, 09:12 AM   #10 (permalink)
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I use blue everywhere except one of the two spindle bolts where I use red instead. This is to have only one bolt come loose during head disassembly for bearing replacements. Always clean threads thoroughly with alcohol for proper bonding.
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Old 05-08-2018, 12:15 PM   #11 (permalink)
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http://na.henkel-adhesives.com/us/co...20_2017_LR.pdf

Page 121 begins the section on retaining compounds. We mostly use this type of product when we put green on bearing races to keep them from spinning in their holders. I use Loctite 648.

Page 133 begins the section on thread lockers.

There is a lot to know about these compounds. Here's just a few items I suspect some may be unaware of.

These are anaerobic compounds that cure in the absence of air and in the presence of metal ions. The second point is more important for us as this explains why certain metals tend to resist a full cure. Plated threads, stainless steel, titanium and aluminum are all examples of inactive metals that don't release a lot of ions need for a cure. This is where the use of certain products like 648 that has additives that help to activate can be helpful. Still I've found that screws into aluminum parts such as often the case with tail boom supports benefit from the use of a dedicated activator. It should be noted the use of an activator typically reduces strength of the ultimate bond slightly.

Oils can in fact be a detriment to curing. Once again certain products can help with this. You should not expect any Loctite to hold if you apply it to a fastener that is flooded with oil from nitro smoke.

The full cure period for Loctite is 24 hours. It is best to wait if you can for this process to work its magic.

Loctite makes high temperature thread sealants that would be more appropriate for exhaust system screws and bolts. Most of the product line is rated up to 300F. I've had good luck with Blue 246 which is rated up to 450F. IMO the best advice for exhaust systems is to tighten the fastener then fly the model briefly to bring it up to temp then give the fastener a secondary cinch which will typically yield another 1/8 to 1/4 turn when hot. Be careful as you can easily go too far here. It's a matter of touch and experience.

Henkel Adhesives, the distributor of Loctite,uses a color code in giving a rough guide to the strength of their product. Purple for low strength, Blue for medium, Red for High and Green for wicking grade product. Henkel also notes that a determinant in product selection is at least in part a function of fastener size. They call out purple for fasteners up to 1/4 inch in diameter, blue between 1/4 and 3/4 inch and red above that.

We need to be careful in applying these color codes however. There is much more to various products than just their strength and there is no guarantee any particular color denotes specific properties with other brands. The literature for the actual product in question should always be consulted.

Irregardless of manufactures recommended product for strength and size my own experience leads me to use a product like Blue 243 for most screws on the heli that do not directly lead to a catastrophic failure if they were to fall out. Examples being, 2.5 to 3mm frame and servo screws. I use red 263 for very small fasteners 2.5 and below when a failure could lead to a crash. Examples here being pinion and pulley screws, linkage balls etc. Both of these products contain an activator that helps in oily environments and on inactive metals. Again a fastener that seems to be chronically loose like boom supports and landing gear mounts on Nitro machines gets a dedicated activator. I use 7649 primer applied with a Q tip when needed.

Tips for use:

Clean the oil off. I use alcohol, acetone works but I think is unnecessary. For many years I tried cleaning old hardened Loctite using all manner of chemicals, wire brushes and an ultrasonic cleaner. Nothing ever really worked worth a damn. I finally realized that the best solvent for Loctite is more Loctite. Just turn the fastener in a good quality paper towel soaked in alcohol. I use my little gyro powered screw driver which gives a bunch of turns with minimal effort. If the fastener is so boogered up it is time to spend 8 cents on a new one.

Use a reasonable amount of product. I apply a small amount of product directly to the threads and then turn the threads agains my finger to remove the excess. If the threads are tight they will tend to force product out as you insert the fastener so I'll occasionally run a fastener pre-loaded with loctite in and out of the hole to distribute it along the length of the bore. This often requires wiping the excess off up near the screw head after screwing it most of the way in. This is especially important in areas where a bearing is captured such as feathering shafts and levers so the bearing does not get contaminated with thread locker. In some of these cases of very tiny screws the thread locker can also be applied directly into the hole with a toothpick to prevent bearing contamination.

Use quality tools and learn how to properly torque a fastener by hand. Poor tools that don't fit ring the death knell for fasteners. Fortunately there are more good options out there today then ever before. Some of my favorite tools are my 3 Vessel JIS screw drivers. If you don't know the difference between Phillips and JIS screws do your homework. Most of the screws on our machines that look like this are JIS and using a Phillips screw driver on them is asking for trouble. For torquing, a good rule of thumb is to watch and feel the screws tension as you are bringing it up to hand tight which is nothing more than the air gaps being taken up by the assembly. From that point forward it is rarely more than 1/2 turn until proper torque is realized. You can absolutely teach yourself to feel this point by paying close attention to the torque curve ramping up as you find the sweet spot. A little trick I've found useful for removing fasteners with a good thread sealant holding them is to ensure the driver is inserted fully and squarely into the screw then rapidly popping your fist into a tight clench as you apply torque, while holding the tool hard into the screw. This creates a sort of poor mans hand impact effect that will often lead to the thread sealant snapping as it breaks loose. Stop short of applying so much torque you strip the head. At that point you may need a bit of heat from a soldering iron tip before proceeding.

Theres a lot knowledge and nuance to this topic. The only thing worse than working on someone's build who single handedly increased the stock price of Loctite brands through the quantity of product used during construction; is flying a machine where parts are flying off on every flight because the mechanic had never heard the term thread locker.
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Old 05-08-2018, 10:57 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I can't be bothered to degrease, clean, soak in acetone, wash with holy water or whatever people think up these days.

I use blue almost everywhere and I probably use it incorrectly at that.

I've only red threadlocked a handful of things over the years because they just would not stay otherwise (think muffler bolts).

I just do a bolt check after the first flight or two and any loose screws get another dose of blue. My experience has been that they hold well enough for years after that even though I still do a bolt check every now and then.


Oh, and don't forget to shake your favorite bottle of threadlock before using it.
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