Off center feel between logo, protos, goblin, oxy align

[Thickfog]

So taking cyclic ring down to 8 on the logo 550 sure did mute it off center. But the roll rate was absolutely horrible.


I'll just have to live with it and use some expo in the tx to taste.

Might be what some love about the "logo feel" and msh helis. And I happen to not like it. I guess different airframes SHOULD feel different or else what's the point of different helis and brands?

[prototype3a]

I'll just say that I can feel and see differences between blades with the FBL unit active.

I've only ever flown one brand of blades that I instantly hated. Most of the others that I've flown over the years are very similar except for the cyclic speed and efficiency.

I think people forget that the aircraft is a "system" and even though the FBL unit can hide or change flight characteristics, changing blades or head damping or c/g or whatever still has an effect.

[Unihiron]

I'll add my input. I recommend setting up a model from scratch on your radio (of course not erase the old one)..save your current brain config file, and just do a brand new setup from scratch one a test heli with all the defaults in the fbl and no expo or any special parameters in the tx.
The first step is to have a solid default to tune on and not going crazy with constant tweaking. That will just lead you down a path of confusion. Get a feel for the heli in defaults and go from there. If your tail setup was fine before, then just screenshot and copy the parameters back into the new setup.....(or you can just skip this and go to my next paragraph).

From what you are seeing in the system, you may need to adjust the cyclic throw AND adjust the roll rates until you find what works for you. You will have to strike a balance with cyclic throw, expo, and roll rates to get the kind of feel you are looking for. I won't recommend adding any transmitter expo until you get the flb unit feel set up. I use tx expo after I have tweaked the expo settings in the brain. Also flybar feel could play a factor too. only adjust 1 bank and keep another bank that is "safe" in case things get out of control.

[Thickfog]

All tuning on hold for now. Lil dumb thumb.
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url...9&share_type=t

[myxiplx]

Lots of settings can affect this. In the FBL settings you're usually asked to set it up with around 8° of pitch for cyclic.

If you're getting too fast an initial response this may be a little higher than you need for you blade, geometry and headspeed combination.

I've generally found three settings which give you a huge range of change in feel:

- Initial blade pitch range in FBL setup
- Expo
- Overall flip and roll rates

Since you've tried the last two, try dropping the angle a little in setup, it will reduce the amount of pitch the FBL uses by default, and you can then tweak expo and rates too.

[Thickfog]

Already did that. Went to 8. Was terrible. Had to go back to 10.

Originally Posted by myxiplx

Lots of settings can affect this. In the FBL settings you're usually asked to set it up with around 8° of pitch for cyclic.

If you're getting too fast an initial response this may be a little higher than you need for you blade, geometry and headspeed combination.

I've generally found three settings which give you a huge range of change in feel:

- Initial blade pitch range in FBL setup
- Expo
- Overall flip and roll rates

Since you've tried the last two, try dropping the angle a little in setup, it will reduce the amount of pitch the FBL uses by default, and you can then tweak expo and rates too.

[Crashalotjoe]

The other areas you might play with: Agility (integral decay/flybarless effect) and cyclic gains.


Increasing the overall cyclic gain may make it feel a little more locked-in, reducing it may reduce the edginess. Increased P gain may make it feel more edgy, obviously reduced P gain should make it a little softer.


Reducing the agility should make it feel a little more locked-in/robotic, increasing it should make it flow more.


Worth some experimentation I guess.

[Thickfog]

Originally Posted by Crashalotjoe

The other areas you might play with: Agility (integral decay/flybarless effect) and cyclic gains.


Increasing the overall cyclic gain may make it feel a little more locked-in, reducing it may reduce the edginess. Increased P gain may make it feel more edgy, obviously reduced P gain should make it a little softer.


Reducing the agility should make it feel a little more locked-in/robotic, increasing it should make it flow more.


Worth some experimentation I guess.

Did all that. Gonna leave em be possibly and call it the feel of certain airframes!

[myxiplx]

Originally Posted by Thickfog

Already did that. Went to 8. Was terrible. Had to go back to 10.

Terrible how?

You'll most likely find that changing this setting on its own will slow the response. But a combination of changing this, increasing the rates, and tweaking expo may help.

I'm not an expert at tuning the Brain though, you might want to post these questions in the brain forum. You'll likely get a lot more informed tips on how to tune it.

[Thickfog]

Response was unusable. No matter how high I put the role rate. I'm only running 1600rpm so that might not help out along with lower cyclic ring. Lower cyclic ring too much and the heli will never achieve the stated roll rate. And compound that with lower head speed and no bueno.

Originally Posted by myxiplx

Terrible how?

You'll most likely find that changing this setting on its own will slow the response. But a combination of changing this, increasing the rates, and tweaking expo may help.

I'm not an expert at tuning the Brain though, you might want to post these questions in the brain forum. You'll likely get a lot more informed tips on how to tune it.

[Krager]

One thing I do that ~might~ help is I set all expos to zero in the Brain Configuration app and set them in my radio where I can actually view the curves. The FBL unit gives you zero indication of what's in there, could be a lot, could be a little. I find it helpful to see the actual curves.

Also they added an indicator in the event log that tells you if the heli can't make the rates. If you see a lot of those it tells your rate is too high or your cyclic travel is too low. I think ideally you want the travel just enough to make the rates so you get the most resolution.

[jsbach#1]

Originally Posted by Thickfog

Response was unusable. No matter how high I put the role rate. I'm only running 1600rpm so that might not help out along with lower cyclic ring. Lower cyclic ring too much and the heli will never achieve the stated roll rate. And compound that with lower head speed and no bueno.

One question and one suggestion. Question - What machine are you running 1600 rpms on. Suggestion - you tried 8 and it was aweful. Try 9.5, a smaller reduction from what youre used to.

[Thickfog]

Originally Posted by jsbach#1

One question and one suggestion. Question - What machine are you running 1600 rpms on. Suggestion - you tried 8 and it was aweful. Try 9.5, a smaller reduction from what youre used to.

Logo 550se.
I'll do that.
I just find it odd that the same 2 brands need this in all of their helis no matter size or other settings for my style I'm after.

[myxiplx]

The difference will likely be down to the geometry of the links between the servos and the head. But once you work out how nearly every aspect of how a Heli feels is tunable in the FBL. Sometimes it's amazing the effect a couple of small changes can have.

[smittylube]

1600 does not feel real good for me on my 550se. I fly mine at 1800.

Think about head speed as well in your setups as more HS will make it more lively both cyclic and collective.



I'd suggest getting one heli setup to your preference and work from that. Try and get the others flying similar.

Blades make a huge difference. Some fly really well at mid to lower HS while others not so much. Some are really stable and others really twitchy.

Those edge blades on the logo are a good solid blade, but I've found I prefer others now instead.

[HammerFest93]

If you add expo in your TX and want to view the input curves, they will not be accurate. This is because the majority if your setup is handled by the FBL, which receives linear inputs from the TX. Your FBL will be processing the linear information and then smoothing it out to the selected settings.



IF you are running TX expo, I am pretty sure it will interfere with your FBL tuning, as the numbers you see in setup will no longer directly correlate (external non-linear responses from TX will also be affecting the heli's behavior). I suggest:


-Create a new default setup in FBL
-Adjust pitch and roll rates to your liking
-THEN, add expo as you wish (in FBL).


I run my G380 KSE this way and can not believe how predictable and smooth it reacts to inputs from my cruddy DX8G2 (the collective gimbal feels like it's steering through sand).

[dboi28]

This has probably something to do with the geometry and servo lay up on the heli. Today everybody wants direct to swash lay out. If you picture the servo with the horn mounted 90 degrees. The horn travels in an arc and not straight up and down. The closer the ball are to the servo the smaller the arc is. When it`s in 90 degree position, the very first movement wich is off center on your stick, results in the biggest up and down movement on your swash. The further out on the sticks the more the servo ball is moving towards the servo, not so much up and down. It`s like reversed expo. It also varies between models with the rest of the geometry of the heli.
If you look at the raptor G4/e720 and the E700 it used bellcranks with very long arms. This was too give a arc with bigger radius to make it more linear in the whole range of the stick movement. Unfortunatly this helis are discontinued. I still have mine G4 and E720 and fly them and a trex 700. The feel is different and on the trex, if I need more cyclic when I`am already towards the end of the stick, a lot less is happening cause there is little movement up and down left for the swash.

[cbrian4]

Originally Posted by dboi28

This has probably something to do with the geometry and servo lay up on the heli. Today everybody wants direct to swash lay out. If you picture the servo with the horn mounted 90 degrees. The horn travels in an arc and not straight up and down. The closer the ball are to the servo the smaller the arc is. When it`s in 90 degree position, the very first movement wich is off center on your stick, results in the biggest up and down movement on your swash. The further out on the sticks the more the servo ball is moving towards the servo, not so much up and down. It`s like reversed expo.

And to further complicate things, some flybarless units compensate for this non-linearity of arcing servo-arm motion and some don't. Of those that do, its usually not tuneable or is unclear what affects this "linearization." Some you can turn it off.

[Thickfog]

Brain/ Ikon i thought use expo. It's base settings have it turned on.

Originally Posted by cbrian4

And to further complicate things, some flybarless units compensate for this non-linearity of arcing servo-arm motion and some don't. Of those that do, its usually not tuneable or is unclear what affects this "linearization." Some you can turn it off.