My ridiculous futuristic power system idea - liquid batteries

[ultrataco]

Yes refillable liquid batteries. Or perhaps gel or whatever. Imagine all the convenience of batteries but no charging or discharging or having to buy a bunch of different batteries for every heli. Just fill up and go, like nitro. When your done, you're either left with some sort of easily disposable (or maybe "rechargeable") liquid or maybe it gets used up like nitro.

Either way you get the convenience of both electric AND nitro without the hassles of either. Could either be a tank like nitro or individual refillable battery-like containers. I think a tank would be better as that would eliminate the annoying problem of deciding which size batteries to buy. Even if it had to be individual containers, you'd only need one per heli, which would ideally be cheaper than a whole battery.

This is based on no scientific anything whatsoever. Just a thought.

[Raptorapture]

Interesting idea! Something like a liquid battery tray meaning instead of removing the full Lipo you just recycle the contents.

[jharkin]

The concept has already been developed. Go on YouTube and search for the PBS Nova episode “Search for the super battery”

[Art Henk]

Originally Posted by jharkin

The concept has already been developed. Go on YouTube and search for the PBS Nova episode “Search for the super battery”

I'm watching the full episode on youtube right now.

The battery at roughly 30 minutes into the episode seems pretty impressive. Unfortunately, they sound almost too good to be true, so you know what that means.

[Smoggie]

You could be describing a hydrogen fuel cell.. The problem with hydrogen fuel cells is that hydrogen is hard to store and transport.

[GREYEAGLE]

T- Stoff

and

S- Stoff

To fuel it you gota wear rubber gloves

To Fly it you got a wear a Leather and Rubberized Suit :They Did too !
Hoping it don't slosh out of the tanks.

Then Hope you don't crash it or you GO > Boom !

Pretty Darn Successful too !

[mattbeau]

Well, they are working on it.

If you can create stations that convert the solar energy to hydrogen fuel cells on site with good conversion efficiency, you don't really need to transport it.

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms13237

States you can achieve 30% now.

As solar panels get better and we find more efficient methods to split water, I think one day cars could be powered this way.

[jharkin]

Originally Posted by GREYEAGLE

T- Stoff

and

S- Stoff

To fuel it you gota wear rubber gloves

To Fly it you got a wear a Leather and Rubberized Suit :They Did too !
Hoping it don't slosh out of the tanks.

Then Hope you don't crash it or you GO > Boom !

Pretty Darn Successful too !

Your thinking of the Me-163 I assume. It was T-Stoff (hydrogen peroxide ) and C-Stoff (methanol/hydrazine/water mix) or Z-Stoff (Calcium permangate/water).




I had to look it up, S-Stoff existed but it was a nitric acid compound.






.... Anyway, back to the topic at hand... the battery I mentioned and Al is watching uses a replaceable electrolyte solution that can be refreshed form tanks. In that Nova episode they where testing it in some large stationary applications with the idea it might be used for electric cars. It was definitely a battery and not a fuel cell.

[e92.M3]

Originally Posted by jharkin

Your thinking of the Me-163 I assume. It was T-Stoff (hydrogen peroxide ) and C-Stoff (methanol/hydrazine/water mix) or Z-Stoff (Calcium permangate/water).
I had to look it up, S-Stoff existed but it was a nitric acid compound.
.... Anyway, back to the topic at hand... the battery I mentioned and Al is watching uses a replaceable electrolyte solution that can be refreshed form tanks. In that Nova episode they where testing it in some large stationary applications with the idea it might be used for electric cars. It was definitely a battery and not a fuel cell.

I swore to myself not to ever click on this thread when it first came out last night just because.

I guess i failed and now back to wiping off my brain back to zero of Greyeagle's stuff.

[yakky]

Always looking for the next best, but...Lets see refill a pack or just swap. Swap sounds a whole lot quicker.

[mkovalcson]

Originally Posted by Grumpy_Old_Man

You could be describing a hydrogen fuel cell.. The problem with hydrogen fuel cells is that hydrogen is hard to store and transport.

It also evaporates in the tank.

More importantly you get 80% efficiency storing energy in a battery vs. the 30-40% by creating and using Hydrogen in a Fuel Cell.

There will be very few applications where it makes sense to use a Fuel Cell in the near future.

The next Tesla Roadster is expected to have a range of 620miles. It won't be long after that before we have cars that far exceed what anyone would want to drive in a day.

Tesla is expecting to roll out it's Semi Trucks in 2019 and has a huge backlog of orders because the expected substantial fuel savings.

[GREYEAGLE]

Originally Posted by Grumpy_Old_Man

You could be describing a hydrogen fuel cell.. The problem with hydrogen fuel cells is that hydrogen is hard to store and transport.

Liquids are a Elxier of Molecules : Even in Pint's / Quarts/ and Liter's

Molecules consist of Lot's of Many Tiny little Busy / Busy ATOM's :Like Atom ANT .

Them ATOM's are Very Busy kus they got ELECTRONS than zoom around the Proton ;

Them Electrons are Charged either + or - and they spin like crazy TOO ! = Busy / Busy

Mr.Ever Ready Kilo Watt !!!!

All ya gota do is get em to { NOT LIKE EACH OTHER } : They get Really Aggravated !!

Make Many Many BIG ENERGY ! Real Zippy Electrons !!! Zappy Ones !

Yer On too SOMETHING !!! : = t- sTOFF + s sTOFF = READY SET go !!!!


Hydrogen is BETTER / Got a LOT of it ! H20 just gota know how to kick it in the slat's !

You got Hydrogen AND Oxygen ! In ONE Molecule preloaded 2 for ONE !

Real Zippy !

It has been proven too work too ! Make BIG SPARK ! Gona Need a Magnet !

Carry On !

[ultrataco]

Originally Posted by yakky

Always looking for the next best, but...Lets see refill a pack or just swap. Swap sounds a whole lot quicker.

Sure it would take a minute or two longer, but you save time by not charging or discharging. And if you crash or decide not to fly a heli, or want to fly more, no problem.

Plus you only need one pack per heli and it would be cheap because just an empty container. Even then you could have multiple "tanks" and just swap if you really want to.

But in my ideal fantasy, all these helis would come with a built in tank (like nitro) so when building a new heli you'd never have to worry about buying batteries at all any more. No more trying to decide which batteries to buy, no more accumulating batteries, no more worry about fires or proper disposal, transporting etc.

Go to the field with only your helis, tx, and a bottle of this liquid electric fuel.

The convenience of nitro but without the mess, starting, tuning, noise or smoke. (Though I don't mind the noise or smoke usually)

[mattbeau]

Originally Posted by mkovalcson

It also evaporates in the tank.

More importantly you get 80% efficiency storing energy in a battery vs. the 30-40% by creating and using Hydrogen in a Fuel Cell.

There will be very few applications where it makes sense to use a Fuel Cell in the near future.

The next Tesla Roadster is expected to have a range of 620miles. It won't be long after that before we have cars that far exceed what anyone would want to drive in a day.

Tesla is expecting to roll out it's Semi Trucks in 2019 and has a huge backlog of orders because the expected substantial fuel savings.

But here's the thing, imagine if everyone is charging all battery powered cars at night to get to work in the morning, can our power grid support that?

I think alternative fuel sources are a good thing.

[mkovalcson]

My gut tells me that this is a pipe dream situation.

Either you use a consumable fuel, or you use a battery.

Batteries have polarized cells that hold potential requiring that they be orderly. Pouring a "charged" battery liquid into a tank has no way to maintaining this polarity and therefore the potential difference needed to pull a voltage and current from it.

[mkovalcson]

Originally Posted by mattbeau

But here's the thing, imagine if everyone is charging all battery powered cars at night to get to work in the morning, can our power grid support that?

From a power plant standpoint that is definitely a Yes.

First of all we have coal fired plants that run 24x7 at full tilt and are boiling steam at night that isn't sent to the turbines to generate power because you can't cycle coal fired plants. It takes a day and a half to get them up to an efficient burn. So we would recover that lost energy. In addition Peak energy consumption is during the day and it is by a considerable margin so that if we need to generate more power we already have the capacity.

From a power grid standpoint the average person only drives about 29.2 miles per day and it doesn't take that much to top that off. This is why Elon Musk was setting up off hour charging that would be staggered. Specifically he was working with California power utilities to allow the power companies to load balance which cars are charging at 1AM, 2AM, 3AM, 4AM etc..

The bottom line is that every single car in the US could charge at night right now without any new power plants and no change in infrastructure for the vast majority of areas.

In addition we eventually get to reclaim all that wasted space used by gas stations in prime real estate areas. We eliminate a huge amount of spilled fuel the gets into our water supply and poison's soil. We save all the effort to pump oil, refine gas, transport gas, store and distribute gas.

[Smoggie]

Originally Posted by mkovalcson

The next Tesla Roadster is expected to have a range of 620miles. It won't be long after that before we have cars that far exceed what anyone would want to drive in a day.

Time will tell but with current and 'near future' battery tech that would only be achievable by dragging around a MASSIVE battery. Electric cars already make some impressive claims about range, but those claims are very rarely reproducible in real world conditions. Though to be fair gas mileage claims are similarly misleading.

[ultrataco]

Originally Posted by mkovalcson

My gut tells me that this is a pipe dream situation.

Either you use a consumable fuel, or you use a battery.

Batteries have polarized cells that hold potential requiring that they be orderly. Pouring a "charged" battery liquid into a tank has no way to maintaining this polarity and therefore the potential difference needed to pull a voltage and current from it.

That's why I called it "ridiculous" 🙂 My intent was not to start a scientific feasibility discussion, though I have no problem with that of course. It's just a random sci-fi fantasy thought I have almost every time I have to buy or charge packs or mess with nitro.

I'm not even thinking it has to electric as we know it. Could be some other yet-to-be invented/discovered form of energy.

[mkovalcson]

Originally Posted by ultrataco

That's why I called it "ridiculous" 🙂 My intent was not to start a scientific feasibility discussion, though I have no problem with that of course. It's just a random sci-fi fantasy thought I have almost every time I have to buy or charge packs or mess with nitro.

I'm not even thinking it has to electric as we know it. Could be some other yet-to-be invented/discovered form of energy.

OK, in that case I'm rooting for the ZPM's from Stargate Atlantis. With 3 Zero Point Modules each about the size of a lantern they had enough energy to run a whole city, make it fly, put a shield around it and run a stargate

[Smoggie]

Originally Posted by mkovalcson

It also evaporates in the tank.

More importantly you get 80% efficiency storing energy in a battery vs. the 30-40% by creating and using Hydrogen in a Fuel Cell.

There will be very few applications where it makes sense to use a Fuel Cell in the near future.

The next Tesla Roadster is expected to have a range of 620miles. It won't be long after that before we have cars that far exceed what anyone would want to drive in a day.

Tesla is expecting to roll out it's Semi Trucks in 2019 and has a huge backlog of orders because the expected substantial fuel savings.

This is all true but the hydrogen fuel cell does have the potentially 'show stopping' advantage of energy density 200 times greater than lithium batteries. That is a massive advantage for any application where space and weight are a big factor, like cars and even more so aircraft. For sure there are some big challenges with the technology.