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Kontronik Drives Jazz and Jive ESC's and other Kontronik equipment support


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Old 01-05-2021, 10:24 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Exclamation DO NOT USE BAILOUT ON KONTRONIK KOSMIK

I thought I shout it more clear before anybody crashes his heli - do not use the bailout feature on the Kosmiks until Kontronik finds the problem. The feature is sometimes failing.

Details: https://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=865653
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Old 01-24-2021, 07:29 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Since when? Never had an issue
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Old 01-24-2021, 08:53 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by helicraze View Post
Since when? Never had an issue
No offense to the OP but it’s my opinion is that it’s an issue with his radio setup. It is non-conventional in how his bailout is setup. Read through his original thread, it’s pretty clear that he’s overconfident that there’s nothing wrong with his radio setup.

(Since OpenTX is highly programmable: see #3.
http://threevirtues.com/)

It’s pretty likely that his radio is sending a momentary zero throttle signal and resetting the bailout. It has more to do with his transmitter setup than the Kontronik. All it would take is a stray pulse one way or another to cause erratic behavior.

I’ve read that OpenTX is sensitive to the order that scripted functions are defined. I’d blame that before the Kontronik that 100s or 1000s of users aren’t having trouble with.
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Old 01-24-2021, 01:09 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I'm still waiting for another end user to report a similar problem. Until there is any evidence of a pattern to the issue, even a few other people having it, these blanket, all cap "advisories" are neither useful nor constructive.

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Old 01-24-2021, 01:37 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Pretty sure this is user error
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Old 01-25-2021, 12:54 AM   #6 (permalink)
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If I think about it, I would probably write same stuff as you guys if it wouldn't be my problem. Peace.

@JimJW
If radio would be sending a momentary zero, failed bailouts would not end up with "overcurrent error" in log files...
And excuse me being "overconfident" with my setup as you write. I just happen to be a software developer for living and opentx is easy to me. I know it might be overwhelming for others and that's fine.

The good thing is, I got some answer from Kontronik (after I requested a full refund for the Kosmik and the Pyro from the supplier...)

Quote:
sorry for the long waiting time.

we have tried a lot, also test pilots have tried to provoke this error. That means to use a lot of bailout functions in a row on purpose. All controllers worked here without problems and there was none that showed problems like you have. We can not explain the whole thing.
We would be happy to check the controller on our test units. We are not able to reproduce a bailout function.
Maybe it would be helpful if you make a short sketch showing your switch assignment.
How and where is the speed switch, which switch takes over the bailout function, where is the motor off and on switch. Maybe the controller gets confused and therefore sometimes has such errors.

You are also welcome to send us the controller for inspection. Then we can measure the controller, as well as test and check on our test equipment.
We think this will bring you safety when using the controller.
I've send a couple of questions, as I'm not sure, do they want me to send the FBL? I could send it I guess. Let's see if any answer comes.
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Old 01-25-2021, 07:29 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arek View Post
@JimJW
If radio would be sending a momentary zero, failed bailouts would not end up with "overcurrent error" in log files...
And excuse me being "overconfident" with my setup as you write. I just happen to be a software developer for living and opentx is easy to me. I know it might be overwhelming for others and that's fine.

...
I've send a couple of questions, as I'm not sure, do they want me to send the FBL? I could send it I guess. Let's see if any answer comes.
Kontronik is asking you to send in your radio/RX/FBL so they can measure the characteristics of the ESC pulses that are being sent to the ESC. This is right in line with the sporadic pulses I described.

As a software developer, you’ve probably already seen the ‘3 virtues of a ‘great’ software developer’. It was coined by Larry Wall of Perl fame. If you don’t know what Perl or who Larry is, then you probably don’t know the downsides of the 3 Virtues.

My point is that Hubris can get the better of us.

Quote:
Excessive pride or self-confidence; arrogance.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/hubris

That’s a bit different from Larry’s definition but still applies.

My point is not to shame you, but to get you to a solution. I can’t explain the log readings. Over current issues are likely due to bogging a motor, maybe during a failed auto. Or they could be due to a over-geared setup. Or maybe you could have a defective ESC. Or a bad wire. Or??? But to blindly disregard that it could be an issue with your transmitter program, that’s Hubris.
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Old 01-25-2021, 08:18 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Thanks for a lot of writing and analyzing my person @JimJW. I could probably reply with some definition of "gives tons of advises nobody asked for" type of person but... wouldn't it be better to focus on hardware instead of people...?

As for Kontronik, they clarified my questions. It turned out, they want me to ship the ESC, not the FBL. They just call the ESC "controller". But I proposed to send it together with the motor and they agreed. So I will get it inspected by Kontronik.

As the hardware goes, yes - many things can fail. That's why there are logs to help. They show everything the radio is sending to the ESC. And they leave very very little chance for user or radio error. But did you take a look at them at all?
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Old 01-25-2021, 08:59 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Your post implies that all Kontronik ESCs across the board have a problem, when it appears to be a problem only you have.

That is the problem I have. Others are looking at these forums for advice and may trust the information without question.

I’m sorry if I offended you.
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Old 01-25-2021, 03:33 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Exactly, the OP's problem is specific to his system, and should not be represented as a generic issue with the ESC's bailout function.
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Old 01-25-2021, 04:01 PM   #11 (permalink)
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@Arek - Thanks for the update, I look forward to hearing what KONTRONIK's investigation finds.

Having followed their products closely since purchasing my first KONTRONIK ESC quite a few years ago this is the first report of this issue I've ever heard of. As such, I'm eager to learn what's causing the issue you're experiencing.
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Old 01-26-2021, 03:32 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Guys, excuse me if it bothers some of you. I can change the thread title if you think it is too shouty or aggressive.

But in general my thinking is: I have an issue with a brand new Kosmik 200 connected to a brand new Pyro 800. Problem happens rarely, only in auto rotation bailout, and only once per many many times (maybe 50, maybe 100), so it's possible that it is unnoticed. Quite unlikely for anyone to get it, unless you bailout in auto rotations a lot or train auto rotation approaches without landing (which is what I was doing). At the same time, the risk of crash caused by the problem is huge. This makes the problem very rare but vary serious.

And now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I - personally - don't see any hint, evidence, sign or whatever, which would suggest, that this is a problem specific to my system and not yours.

It might be my problem only, my heli only, or my Kosmik faulty, or my Pyro. But it might be all Kosmiks problem as well, or all Kosmik 200 + Pyro 800 combinations, or Kosmik + Goblin Kraken + some vibrations combo, or all Kosmiks 200 produced in this week, or whatever else. We don't know.

This is why I warned everybody to maybe stop trusting the bailout function until the reason is found. Maybe you have same problem, or maybe you don't.

If you think it's different, if you think this problem relates only to my system, please explain why, I'm happy to understand it. Actually this would solve my problem - I would immediately change this thing, which is specific to my system, and bang, problem solved.

Yes, not receiving support for months from Kontronik made me angry and I could have been influenced by that - I'm a human at the end - but I think I'm objective here as I describe the existing problem and only write truth. You don't see a thread in capital letters saying "Kontronik doesn't give support", you rather see a thread warning you to stop using bailout for some time.
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Old 04-19-2021, 08:23 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Arek....
Just curious if you ever found the answer to your problem? I am new to the electric world and have a couple of Kosmics. I have yet to try the bailout function so I have no experience to input here. I hope, however, that you did find the answer.
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Old 04-20-2021, 02:56 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtaildriver View Post
Arek....
Just curious if you ever found the answer to your problem? I am new to the electric world and have a couple of Kosmics. I have yet to try the bailout function so I have no experience to input here. I hope, however, that you did find the answer.
Jim
Believe it or not, the case is still in progress, and my gear is at Kontronik in Germany (ESC and motor). I will describe the end result, it's a long story...
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Old 04-21-2021, 11:31 PM   #15 (permalink)
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"The good thing is, I got some answer from Kontronik (after I requested a full refund for the Kosmik and the Pyro from the supplier...)"

So what is your issue now?
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