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2.4G Spektrum Radios Spektrum 2.4 Gigahertz Radios and Technology


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Old 07-04-2021, 02:45 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default mah useage Avian esc

Hi using a ix20 tx and am thinking of getting a Avian 120 esc ,it does a lot of telemetry but cant find out if it sends mah use ?or do i still have to use external sensors .if not i dont understand why spektrum push this new tech but leaves out what i and a lot of heli flyers want , ie mah useage .
cheers .
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Old 07-05-2021, 03:38 AM   #2 (permalink)
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There maybe a spot in the macros for telemetry. I can't say that it will or will not work but I know that with another gyro I am using, I do get the charge used via the Flight Pack macros. That information should be there but the only helicopter that I had the 120 in, I just removed it. If you have the FC6250HX, you will get full telemetry data but not per cell data as you need Smart batteries for those features. It is also possible that Current Used may not show up unless you are using Smart batteries. Horizon tech support should be able to answer that question. Most of us muddled through via experimentation to find out what works and what doesn't and after a while, I just give up and am happy to get pack voltage via the ESC. The reason that I pulled the ESC is that I have a 700 scale helicopter and the startup kicked like a mule. I was only able to reduce it to about 50% of what it was but I need a very soft and scale-like spool up or I go with what I know gives me that. As far as a working ESC, it does give you full usable telemetry but as I said, I didn't investigate it fully as even I didn't have Smart batteries to try it out with. I did setup a custom window that showed Battery 1 current but I actually never looked at it to see if it was populated. That is the best that I can offer as there is precious little information being given out by owners of these gyros anywhere. I have searched for issues with the kick at start and I can only find info on the original Hobbywing ESCs which is who these are made by but the software and firmware are lacking features of the HWs. Best I can offer.

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Old 07-05-2021, 07:09 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Hey thanks for the info,at the moment i use tm1000 with rctronix sensors that give me what i want ,on 600/700 helis ,i fly with spartan fbl vx1e,
On the 600pro i have cc 80amp esc (thinking avian120 and 6250 hx )
On the goblin 700 i use the hw 130 hv v4 (both 12s helis )
But am thinking of getting the 6250hx with the avian esc to make full use of my new ix20 tx ,and that should give me volts/temp/rpm etc ,but if it does not give mah use i will keep the tm1000 and rctronix as well and get all the telemetry .
Just trying to clean up the wiring and simplify things
but thanks again for the reply
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Old 07-05-2021, 08:47 AM   #4 (permalink)
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I have a Tm1000 hooked to my AR7200 BX on my Xlpower 550 with Avian 100amp esc and have a lead for my battery, i can get voltage of pack but tried the MAH w/o luck, not sure like the guy said you need to have a smart pack? or maybe im doing it wrong?
I am using a NX10. I love the guys at my field with Vbar how they have the unit tell them how much is left in the battery very useful. not sure why its not as simple with spektrum .
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Old 07-05-2021, 11:05 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Here's a video that shows the telemetry on an iX12 with an Avian ESC and a SMART battery in the SMART version of the Mustang. (I know, that's a plank, not a heli.)

No mAh consumed or remaining. I don't think Spektrum does that, but I could be wrong. You can get pack voltage, and you can get a reading of the current being drawn at the time, but it doesn't calculate mAh.
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Old 07-05-2021, 12:13 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I think you'll find that the Hobbywing ESCs also do not have mAh consumed information, which the Avian is. I know that if you have current used like is in the Castles, some gyros can work out the mAh that have been consumed based on that draw. I get the feeling that the reading is solely based on the gyro interpreting the data and not the ESC. If the ESC has current being drawn by the motor (and internal BEC if equipped) and it is read by the gyro, it could be setup to give that info using the Flight Pack macro which the Brain2/iKON2 are setup to do. Just my thoughts.

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Old 07-05-2021, 01:04 PM   #7 (permalink)
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You may want to consider an alternative to Spektrum.
You already have two ESC brands (CC & HW) that have the telemetry interface needed for the MSH Electronics iKON2 / Brain2 to provide the "mA Consumed" ("fuel gauge") back to your iX20 (or iX12, DX-series gen2 or NX radios).
You can replace the TM1000 with a SPM4651T + 2 SPM4647 / SPM4648 sats and get a bi-directional interface between the transmitter and the flight controller and get all the telemetry the ESC supports plus telemetry and remote setup of the flight controller.
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Old 07-05-2021, 02:10 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Another note on the 4651T/6250 combination. You will not be able to use the TM1000 at the same time. Only one will transmit the data according to the techs at Horizon that post here and on other forums. I can tell you from using the battery voltage voice callout for a few years now and it is as accurate as the mAh consumed. I would not take the view that you are missing a "Must Have" option. Like I mentioned, there are systems that will give you that readout but your plans are not going to move along with the equipment you are planning to use. As much as I like the 6250, it is not a good combination with the Avian 120A in my area of interest. It will not slow spool up. That doesn't mean that it is not a good combination for a 3D machine, just not for a scale helicopter. The Brain2/iKON2, when used with HW or Castle and the 4651T plus one or two standard remotes, will give you all the marbles, of that you can be certain. I have three systems that follow that setup or use the 4649T in place of the 4651T. I am just waiting on a Castle HV120 to run with a 6250 but I am not expecting nor needing mAh readouts to feel confident in the telemetry given me. I run two of those systems but they will most likely be the last. Systems from here out will be iKON2s. Hope this helps.

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PS: I also run an iX20.
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Old 07-05-2021, 02:37 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Thanks guys will have a rethink , at the moment i get what i need ,but just wanted to try something else #ticedoff8 yea i have thought about brain /ikon so that may be the path, but kinda wanted to go spektrum all the way ,but they do lack in someways to other manufacturers when it comes to telemetry ,ie jeti/vbar etc .
thanks all
ps

#keyrigger (Avian 120A in my area of interest. It will not slow spool up). if they are hw esc rebrands i thought the spoolup issue was fixed ?my hw 130 hv v4 in my goblin 700 has a nice slow start .

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Old 07-05-2021, 11:17 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keyrigger View Post
I think you'll find that the Hobbywing ESCs also do not have mAh consumed information, which the Avian is. I know that if you have current used like is in the Castles, some gyros can work out the mAh that have been consumed based on that draw. I get the feeling that the reading is solely based on the gyro interpreting the data and not the ESC. If the ESC has current being drawn by the motor (and internal BEC if equipped) and it is read by the gyro, it could be setup to give that info using the Flight Pack macro which the Brain2/iKON2 are setup to do. Just my thoughts.

Don
So how does the MAH part work? you say it just keeps up with what has been used? not what is left. well that would be fine also.



I have a castle in my Goblin, with a Ikon 2 BT unit, and thought all i needed was the castle link telemetry thing so i got it but then realized no place to plug in for xbus, then someone said you have to make a short extension with a capacitor inline to plug into a servo port on the Ikon2 to make that happen.
I wish this stuff was a little easier to make all work together.

I have a flying buddy with a 6250 and avian esc and he says he could never get any of it to work, maybe he didn't have the TX programmed correctly.

I use Avian smart esc in my planes and get voltage and temp on my radio w/o issues but the MAH would be nice also.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ticedoff8 View Post
You may want to consider an alternative to Spektrum.
You already have two ESC brands (CC & HW) that have the telemetry interface needed for the MSH Electronics iKON2 / Brain2 to provide the "mA Consumed" ("fuel gauge") back to your iX20 (or iX12, DX-series gen2 or NX radios).
You can replace the TM1000 with a SPM4651T + 2 SPM4647 / SPM4648 sats and get a bi-directional interface between the transmitter and the flight controller and get all the telemetry the ESC supports plus telemetry and remote setup of the flight controller.
I just got a SPM4651T and was considering putting it on my Ikon 2. and ditching one of the Sats. I guess or would i really still need both sats? I only have the 4651T on my Blade fusion with one sat coming off the 6250.

but not sure what if any data I would/could get, cause on it its running the Castle talon 90 esc.

thinking about just getting another avian 100amp esc for it tho. then i could get data?
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Old 07-06-2021, 12:17 AM   #11 (permalink)
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As you pointed out, you need to make a jumper cable so that the telemetry can be read by the iKON2/Brain2 coming from the Castle ESCs. They are simple to do and it takes me less than 20 minutes from a cold start to have it finished. I need to make one more but that will not be for a little while now. The Castles record the current consumed but do not make it available as something to be displayed. Somehow, MSH Electronics has been able to tap into that information and make it available. I use it as one of two spoken telemetry events that are activated by my Hold switch when it is in the O position. I run engine battery voltage from the ESC section and the mAh reading comes from the Flight Pack MAH macro and since there is only one battery on this system, Flightpack_Chargedused_A and it will call out the current used. You may need to do a calibration if you are inputting more than it reports being used and that is in the basic setup pages of the iKON2 software. I have come to the conclusion that unless the ESC gives you the data you want outright, like flight pack voltage, or current used, then there will need to be another way to access the information. The iKON2 has allowed that information to be accessed but it does need a bit of work to be done by the pilot. Take care.

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Old 07-06-2021, 05:15 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keyrigger View Post
I think you'll find that the Hobbywing ESCs also do not have mAh consumed information, which the Avian is. I know that if you have current used like is in the Castles, some gyros can work out the mAh that have been consumed based on that draw. I get the feeling that the reading is solely based on the gyro interpreting the data and not the ESC. If the ESC has current being drawn by the motor (and internal BEC if equipped) and it is read by the gyro, it could be setup to give that info using the Flight Pack macro which the Brain2/iKON2 are setup to do. Just my thoughts.

Don
Any HW ESC V4 80A and up provides both current/mAh used, so its a limitation of the Avian firmware being dumbed down intentionally to remove this feature vs the HW original, or its a limitation of the rest of the hardware elsewhere just not being capable to read the data. Brain/Ikon, Spirit and other FBL units have been easily providing this data from any HW above the 60 with no problem for a few years.

You need current in order to calculate capacity used, so this is the limitation as there is no current shunt on any HW 60 and below, but the 80A up all have them. A FBL unit can not "estimate" the Mah used. This is all produced directly from the ESC based on the actual current shunt data, which even then on many ESCs needs an external correction scaling factor for those ESCs which have a less sensitive current shunt than others do when pulling low amps. This is where the FBL unit steps in and can alter the data values coming from the ESC up/down to produce a more accurate result on the TX side, but this is just a simple mathematical % change of the values coming from the ESC

There is a thing called a virtual shunt in the drone world for ESCs that have no current shunt, but they dont work that well for our needs and this isnt what any FBL maker that I'm aware of is using or else there would be no mAh limitations from any of the units or ESCs, at least on paper

You can tune them up/down with a lot of flight experimentation based on the current draw at 100% throttle and it will try and extrapolate any values below 100 based only on throttle stick position, but this really only works on planes or drones where the throttle and load is pretty much fixed most of the time during flight and the load never really changes.

It takes forever and dozens of flights to figure out what the correct 100% throttle current value is, and it will fail immediately on a heli as soon as you dont fly that exact way the next flight.
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Last edited by Xrayted; 07-06-2021 at 06:02 PM..
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Old 07-06-2021, 11:54 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Tony, give my a link to a data sheet from HW that shows the telemetry being output from the HW ESCs. In the iKON2 and Spirit, the mAh used is CALCULATED by the gyro, NOT given from the ESC. Please show me. I am tired of this. Go read the sheets from MSH Electronics and Spirit again and tell that they don't calculate the mAh used values and that it is a direct output from the ESCs. I am ready to read and learn.

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Old 07-07-2021, 12:55 AM   #14 (permalink)
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For what its worth...
This is a chart from MS Electronics (Brain2 / iKON2) that lists the 6 supported ESC that can send telemetry through their flight controllers.

Its interesting to note that mA Consumed is a value that is calculated by the flight controller's software and not being sent to the flight controller as a value for the Castle Creations and the HW (and variants loaded with the generic HW firmware):



There are some ESC listed that do calculate their own mA Consumed. But not CC or HW.

My assumption is that the MSH Electronics flight controller are sampling the "Main Battery Current" values and summing them over time. The CC Talon does not send the "Main Battery Current" values, so that's why MSH Electronics flight controllers cannot calculate mA Consumed from the Talon ESC.
I don't know how the Spirit does this (assuming it does).
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Old 07-07-2021, 09:59 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Keyrigger View Post
Tony, give my a link to a data sheet from HW that shows the telemetry being output from the HW ESCs. In the iKON2 and Spirit, the mAh used is CALCULATED by the gyro, NOT given from the ESC. Please show me. I am tired of this. Go read the sheets from MSH Electronics and Spirit again and tell that they don't calculate the mAh used values and that it is a direct output from the ESCs. I am ready to read and learn.

Don
I think we are talking past each other with essentially the same info here Don. The FBL unit needs the current data which comes from the ESC. Its very simple to calculate the current over time/mAh once you have this value, but a FBL unit cannot "calculate" mAh telemetry without the current data which is given by the ESC, and therefore by default mAh is a factor of the ESC data no matter where its calculated.

Your post seemed to indicate that no HW can provide this data, which of course its well known that the 80A and above absolutely can if using electronics that can make use of the info which is the OPs problem here.

Now I understand you were talking about where the actual conversion to mAh itself specifically occurs rather than the desired end result at the TX which is inconsequential considering the OP doesnt have the ability to access the data anyway with his current equipment. Unless he is willing to move all electronics into the new Spektrum ecosystem. The Avian 120 has a current shunt just like its HW original, so it is possible to obtain mAh used with the correct equipment that can access it

Whether the other FBL brands are locked out or not from accessing this data is another discussion though. I seem to recall at one point in the past it was locked out with different firmware, but then later a few others claimed they were getting it with Brain? It would be cheaper to switch FBL units if it will work than to be forced into using all Spek packs, and electronics just to get the data from the Avian
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Last edited by Xrayted; 07-07-2021 at 11:55 AM..
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Old 07-07-2021, 12:13 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Yes, Tony, we both are on the same page when it comes to how the mAh usage is done by MSH. I won't be using the HW or Avian line for the simple reason that I am completely familiar with the Castle Creations line and what it can do no matter what gyro it is hooked up to. I will miss getting the mAh readings from my two 6250s but I can live with that as I get everything else I need. I cannot come to terms with the spool up of the Avian as it is not adjustable for my purposes. Take care.

Don
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Old 07-30-2021, 09:12 AM   #17 (permalink)
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I asked about the same mah used on spektrum and seems like it doesn't have this feature. Kinda disappointed because of all the 'smart' stuff they got and I was thinking about trying out on my dx9.
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