External vs. FBL governor

[weracemo]

I would normally post this in the Kontronik forum but it pertains more to the speed heli and its requirements than what would be considered a problem...

I've been testing my stuff (blades off) and noted a few things of interest...

--My Vbar FBL governor has some method of compensation that raises the RPM as pitch moves +/- from center... (loaded this may actually work nice)

--My Vbar FBL governor will not drop RPM as voltage drops...

--My brandy dandy new Kontronik Kosmik 200 as an external governor mode 4 will drop RPM as voltage drops...

Now I'm stuck, I'd prefer the RPM to stay the same regardless of Voltage and was told the Kosmik will die a most certain death if I use it mode 1 with an external FBL governor...

The Kontronik lovers say this governor is better than gold but I can't see losing that much RPM over half of a 14s pack to be anything good for speed flying and man is it really bad when you go from a half used 14s (2125rpm) to half used 12s (1587rpm)....

I guesstimate that from a fully charged to empty 14s pack you will drop about 100RPM

Any thoughts from the speed freaks out there

Seems like I should look for a HW but I believe I read somewhere that the peak amps are not as high as the Kosmik

[mkovalcson]

Some people run 100% throttle in a speed run, others run 90 or 95% governed knowing it will be at 100 PWM most of the time anyway.

The VBar Governor couldn't push the Kosmik beyond 100PWM even if the Kosmik supported the governor.

When the ESC is at 100 PWM the battery is running flat out and a battery is discharging the whole time you are flying. The ESC can't put voltage back in your battery that doesn't exist anymore.

If you give your governed ESC enough headroom say 80% throttle than you should maintain a solid speed for the whole flight( assuming you don't run it too low), but otherwise you are limited to the voltage coming out of the battery.

[Vinger]

Never had any problems with Kosmik's governor, one thing it needs is good packs.

Testing mode4 without blades are not recommended, as the rpm are stored on spoolup and this will be higher than when spool up is done with blades.

[weracemo]

I dunno, my PWM signal must not have changed and it is adjustable in the VControl for each bank... I spooled the heli up and set each RPM level for each bank using the telme.

I then began comparing the RPM of the Kosmik to the RPM of the external sensor to prove to myself whether the setting for motor poles in the Kosmik did or did not have to be changed. The setting of 2 did not make the Kosmik show differently than the external sensor.

In the middle of this I noticed when I cycled power to the heli/fbl, the next time I powered it back on the three settings for the RPM were 50rpm lower (each).... hummm

My 14s Optipower packs were about 60% after testing and I thought could this be voltage? I have the correct gearing as per MrMel's head speed calculator and my PWM was not over 87% at my highest RPM selection..

Okay so I thought well if it is voltage, the 14s to 12s will prove it, I took out my Optipower packs and put in my 12s stick pack and RPM was approx. 400 lower..

I'm going to test this some more.... TBD

[Fasster]

testing with blades off will tell you nothing .

activate governor store in your Kosmik , use a decent pack , spool up at 0˚ pitch and your set .

read the instructions , it will explain it to you .

this will fix your problem .

[weracemo]

Originally Posted by Fasster

testing with blades off will tell you nothing .

activate governor store in your Kosmik , use a decent pack , spool up at 0˚ pitch and your set .

read the instructions , it will explain it to you .

this will fix your problem .

I use the Kontronik Kosmik setup wizard in the NEO for mode 4 (stick program). I then take the fully charged lipo and adjust my 3 pwm settings to achieve the rpm I want for each bank (plenty of head room, using proper gearing for rpm i want) . 75, 80, 85

I take that same lipo and another half charged identical lipo. I top off the fully charged, plug it in and the rpm is exactly what i setup. I plug in the half charged lipo and the rpm is unacceptably lower. Back to the fully charged and the rpm is back up again.... (my fbl governor holds the same rpm for the entire flight, thanks to MrMel)

How is governor store going to fix this voltage change? I really don't want to reset the esc with mode 1 again just to re program and get the same result. I've done this three times, once with the programmer and a laptop.

Also, if it works as you say and I'm using gov store and i want to increase one of my banks 100rpm, do i have to reprogram?:

[Fasster]

gear your heli to run your max head speed (bank3) at 80% on the kosmik, this will give you the headroom you need.

increasing RPM is not a problem , no need to reset anything , once you have set governor store (with blades on ) you'll never have to touch it again ,unless you change ratios .

you need to read up on the kosmik governor store , heres some info , but read the instructions so you know .

https://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=676105

starts at bottom of page 19

http://www.kontronik.com/fileadmin/k...KOSMIK_4.6.pdf

[weracemo]

Originally Posted by Fasster

gear your heli to run your max head speed (bank3) at 80% on the kosmik, this will give you the headroom you need.

increasing RPM is not a problem , no need to reset anything , once you have set governor store (with blades on ) you'll never have to touch it again ,unless you change ratios .

you need to read up on the kosmik governor store , heres some info , but read the instructions so you know .

https://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=676105

starts at bottom of page 19

http://www.kontronik.com/fileadmin/k...KOSMIK_4.6.pdf

Okay thanks for the help Fasster

[weracemo]

I have everything hopefully setup correctly and waiting for the rain to stop...

To recap what I did...
1.) reset the Kosmik to mode 1 for a clean start
2.) topped off the charge on the 14s Optipower pack for setup
3.) went online with the programmer, verified not in gov store mode, entered the gear ratio, verified brake was off, verified low voltage shutdown was off "I have telme", and sent configuration to the Kosmik
4.) did a vbar neo setup to mode 4 "by stick" as per the VControl wizard
5.) ran the heli up "not in gov store" to set my three banks to the rpm I want to fly speed
6.) went online with the programmer and turned on the governor store mode.
7.) shut everything off and topped off the 14s Optipower pack, got everything ready to fly and I will go fly it...

8.) ordered a HW200 v4 Opto

Do I fly the heli In all three speeds low, med, high as I would presume it would be for governor store mode?

If I do not like the RPM / PWM signal "since it is now under load" while I am making the governor store mode flight do I land and change it and what will the store mode do with the first signal it saw? This is what gets me because I will have to go through all the above to get the RPM right again and have a fresh pack..

Do I immediately shut down when I like the RPM under load or do I finish the pack? Does it store the same either way?

[Vinger]

Gov store needs to spool up the first time with your weakest pack fully charged, no matter what percentage you use, be it 65 or 85%. It will then match rpm to throttle percentage, which enables it to "store" that relationship between percentage and rpm.

From here on it will always maintain the same rpm irrespective of pack age, BUT if you you change cell count say back to 12S you HAVE to reprogram mode 1, mode4 and set store mode. Remember to always do mode 4 before you make changes to governor settings as programming mode 4 resets all governor settings to default.

Personally I do not use store mode as it can be hard on older packs as well as the fact that I use 100% in my speed bank. I just do mode 1, mode 4 and then set BEC voltage.

[weracemo]

Thanks Vinger, I finally got out and ran the heli and it held RPM nicely. Pack went quick as can be expected since my third bank is 2620rpm but I was able to take off and land on a half charged pack and still hold 2620rpm after idle up to third bank.

Now for the last question.. Can I just put in 12s packs to practice at lower head speeds without changing my three bank (pwm) adjustments (anything for that matter)?

If so will everything stay the same if I put the 14s packs back in?

I'm almost liking the Kosmik. If I can just switch down to the 12s packs to run around 2200rpm, it will make my day. I know my gearing is perfect for that range on 12s according to MrMel's head speed calc.

[Dansy]

I don't if it's possible with the equipment your using....but I got my banks and FM on 2 different 3 positions switches so I can change either without affecting the other.

[weracemo]

Found this from a post in 2013 Kosmik FAQ by jamin_00

https://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=563709

quote:

"15. Do I need to reprogram if I want to use a different cell count? This depends on how different the cell count is. So far it seems this is only being used on 12s and 14s systems so the simple answer is no. Just when you do the programming make sure you use the 14s flight packs and then you can use 12s flight packs without issue."

Any thoughts?

[Vinger]

If you are not using "store" then switching between 12S and 14S works. The store mode is a problem doing that as the ESC want to still get to the rpm/throttle% range when you first spooled up with the 14S.

[weracemo]

Originally Posted by Vinger

If you are not using "store" then switching between 12S and 14S works. The store mode is a problem doing that as the ESC want to still get to the rpm/throttle% range when you first spooled up with the 14S.

Okay plan B is to note all my settings that gave me the headspeed with 14s so I can go back to it.

Then I will just set it up with store mode for 12s.

I don't wanna adjust the pwm up to get 2620rpm again while flying. That is a little stressful taking your eyes off the heli at that high of a headspeed... didn't feel comfortable setting it on the ground either. Had concerns for safety spinning that fast on the ground.

[Paulice]

It's really the last thing you want to do is use store mode.
It will kill your lipos, I don't know of anyone that uses it, I personally would never try it.
Mode 1 mode 4, set bec voltage and fly

[weracemo]

Originally Posted by Paulice

It's really the last thing you want to do is use store mode.
It will kill your lipos, I don't know of anyone that uses it, I personally would never try it.
Mode 1 mode 4, set bec voltage and fly

Please excuse my ignorance as I'm new to speed flying but I have to ask. Wouldn't you want the most repeatable headspeed you can possibly get? I mean stronger packs will just run longer I can only assume...

[plankdriver]

For reference, I only set Mode 1, them Mode 4, bec and fly.

My Diabolo is geared in such way to use ESC % between 78% and 82% for 2,XXX rpms the first 2 passes, then close to the same rpm at Idle up 2 for the 3rd and 4th passes, then is landing time.

I do not want to turn the head ungoverned to avoid unnecessary head loads during low pitch.

Santiago

[weracemo]

Originally Posted by plankdriver

For reference, I only set Mode 1, them Mode 4, bec and fly.

My Diabolo is geared in such way to use ESC % between 78% and 82% for 2,XXX rpms the first 2 passes, then close to the same rpm at Idle up 2 for the 3rd and 4th passes, then is landing time.

I do not want to turn the head ungoverned to avoid unnecessary head loads during low pitch.

Santiago

Okay okay.... I will not question but instead figure this out tomorrow morning when I fly.... I will do the mode1, mode4 then... idle up method if/when headspeed drops... Vbar and telme will advise when to land...

Santiago you are "da man" and once again, thanks for your help my friend...