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Multi Rotor Helicopters - Tandem Multi Rotor Helicopters - Tandem


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Old 05-09-2007, 06:17 AM   #21
good2win22
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The CH47 does have fixed landing gear.
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Old 05-09-2007, 12:44 PM   #22
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Looking good ,,can't wait to see the test vids ... keep it coming .
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Old 05-09-2007, 11:34 PM   #23
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I've been threatening Joe that I'm gonna buy one of those and this just reaffirms my desire to have one. I'm hoping he makes good on his CH46 fuse as well since I prefer that ship to the '47.

Any idea what kind of flight time you'll get once she's airborne?
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Old 05-10-2007, 08:20 PM   #24
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I think there was a CH-46 and it had retractable I THINK!!!!
Cant remember. Will look and search to see.

I so have to have one of these but I so want a CH-46 but a Chinook will do.

Updated due to new info it was not a nasa bird after all.
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Old 05-11-2007, 01:25 AM   #25
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Very nice, Gra55h0pper... I've got mine underway too... I started with the heads, and did the CCW one first. I completed the mechanics yesterday and will be starting the servos/electronics tomorrow...

Personally, the fit/finish of this thing is first rate as I have had zero "issues"... everything seems to just fall into place, eh? I'll be watching to see how yours goes...
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Old 05-11-2007, 02:24 AM   #26
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Hi Leapfrog,

Cool! Nice to see your experiences so far are as good as mine! That's great!

Grasshopper.
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Old 05-11-2007, 10:18 AM   #27
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Good post, Gra55h0pper. Keep it coming.

As for retractable landing gear, the CH-46 gear is fixed. In fact, we used to mock the fixed-wing guys in the landing pattern on the boat when they reported that their landing gear was "down and locked". We would sometimes report that our gear was "down and welded".

In the latter 1980's, when the MV-22 project was still in doubt, Boeing produced the Model 360 - a more modern composite tandem technology demonstrator that was a less-expensive follow-on to the CH-46 that had retractable gear. There's a "History of Choppers" series that runs on the Military Channel and on the History Channel that has a brief clip of this demonstrator flying during the intro to the show.

I've not heard of a NASA CH-46. I'd be interested in reading any information you can find on that, rotorblade.

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Old 05-12-2007, 12:13 AM   #28
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Thats it in the picture, 360 was the name. I always heard that NASA was involved in it some way, though never heard how or WHY!!!! I always figured they let them use the wind tunnels they had. One picture I saw of it years ago looked like it had a very slick skin, not many rivets and very streamlined. Everyone I have ever talked to about it back in the day understood when I said the nasa Chinook.

BUT is it for sure a CH46? sure looks like one.
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Old 05-12-2007, 03:26 AM   #29
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Gra55h0pper, what did you pay for the kit?
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Old 05-13-2007, 11:33 PM   #30
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Installed most of the electronics today! Only the high voltage stuff still needs to be connected. Though there's plenty of room on the frame, things did get a little crowded as I couldn't resist and installed a Spartan-RC infrared flight stabilizer with FMA infrared sensor... :mrgreen: Check www.spartan-rc.com for more information. I've had great experiences with this unit, as I use it for an "emergency bailout switch". Whenever the heli enters an attitude you have trouble recovering from (i.e. you get the oh #&*# feeling...), flip a transmitter switch, the heli levels itself, add some collective and you're flying again! Couldn't resist; have to find out whether it works as well on a tandem...
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Old 05-13-2007, 11:38 PM   #31
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Some more pics...
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File Type: jpg electronics_receiver_and_th2.jpg (872.4 KB, 343 views)
File Type: jpg electronics_battery_compartment.jpg (909.2 KB, 358 views)
File Type: jpg electronics_right_front.jpg (956.6 KB, 295 views)
File Type: jpg electronics_right_rear.jpg (784.6 KB, 288 views)
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Old 05-13-2007, 11:43 PM   #32
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Fascinating.

Some of those photos show the gyro mounted with it's labelled face not horizontal. The sense axis for the GY240/401 gyro is perpendicular to the labelled face so that face must be horizontal for the sense axis to be parallel to the main shaft(s). Maybe this is just an artefact of the incomplete build ?
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Old 05-13-2007, 11:46 PM   #33
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Ah ha, more photos => there are two gyros. Are both of these connected to the Spartan ? On for yaw, one for pitch, what about roll ? Are you aiming for a flybarless setup ?
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Old 05-14-2007, 12:42 AM   #34
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Kgfly,

Indeed two gyros are common for a tandem heli. The 2nd gyro stabilizes the Collective Pitch (CP) between the rotors, i.e. it will adjust the Differential Collective Pitch (DCP) for the heli to maintain its attitude in the "elevator plane" (this is why one of the gyros is mounted to the side of the frame).

Note that neither of these gyros are connected to the Spartan. Only the Aileron, Elevator and Pitch channels are Spartan controlled using the infrared sensor.

Summarizing:

Aileron channel -> stabilized through Spartan-RC infrared sensor to level the heli with the horizon
Elevator channel -> stabilized through Spartan-RC infrared sensor to level the heli with the horizon
Pitch channel (CP) -> stabilized through Spartan-RC infrared sensor to level the heli with the horizon
Rudder channel -> stabilized through gyro1 to fight unwanted forces causing a heading change
Differential collective pitch (DCP) channel -> stabilized through gyro2 to fight unwanted forces causing the heli to tilt

Note that in the transmitter, the DCP channel is mixed into the Elevator channel to make a change on the Elevator channel cause ~70% of that change on the DCP channel.

Also note that the DCP gyro will be operating in AVCS mode (i.e. "heading hold"; even though that's not a good term now) whereas the Rudder gyro will operate in regular "rate" mode. From what I understand, trying to operate the Rudder gyro in AVCS mode doesn't work so well.

Is that :glasses2: or what?
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Old 05-14-2007, 12:48 AM   #35
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Certainly :glasses2:
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Old 05-14-2007, 03:05 AM   #36
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Actually, thinking some more about my post above, I'm not sure whether this will work :?: . The potential problem I see is that with the Spartan in the Elevator channel and a Gyro in the DCP channel, the Spartan and the Gyro may actually start "fighting" eachother, leading to flight instabilization instead of stabilization... Problem is that the Gyro doesn't "see" the attempts of the Spartan to level the heli by applying elevator and will therefore try to maintain its attitude by applying DCP... This could lead to excessive Elevator input one way and excessive DCP input the other way...

I see two possible ways to resolve this:

1) Ask Angelos at Spartan-RC whether he could make the Servo-4 output always equal a percentage (~70%) of the Elevator function. Then the mixing of Elevator to DCP is done by the Spartan-RC unit and the DCP gyro can simply be put behind the Servo-4 output. In a way, this approach would be the nicest as the Spartan-RC will then control both the Elevator and DCP functions, just like the pilot does through the right stick on the transmitter.

2) Let the Spartan-RC unit level the helicopter through the DCP channel, instead of the Elevator channel. The Gyro can then be put behind the Spartan-RC unit and thus "sees" the inputs the stabilizer and/or the pilot are giving on this channel. With this approach, the Elevator channel runs from the receiver straight to the TH2 tandem CCPM mixer. This approach doesn't require a software change in the Spartan-RC unit, but has the downside that the infrared horizon sensing will only "steer" through the DCP channel. This approach may also be the most feasible, as I guess Angelos may have better things to do than to change his software for some idiot trying to put stabilization on a tandem heli... :mrgreen:

Anybody else have experience using an infrared-based stabilizer on a tandem helicopter? Care to share experiences and give feedback on my analysis?
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Old 05-14-2007, 03:10 AM   #37
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Not sure if it will help but take a look in the AP forum on the threads about flybarless setups. They are using 3 gyros + Spartan to give them flybarless operation. Some of their discussion might give you extra insight into your problem.
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:16 AM   #38
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Made some more progress today. Finshed the high voltage electronics (will be running a 4S setup). Programmed the speed control and the TH-2 for servo centering. Also did a quick test-run of the installed motor and everything runs smooth! Having lots of fun here...

BTW: I decided to run the DCP channel through the Spartan-RC (ap2000i) before running it through the DCP gyro. This way, the Spartan and the gyro will not be "competing for control" as the gyro will see the inputs the Spartan gives as if it were human inputs. Only on the DCP channel though, which means that the spartan will (can) only level the heli using DCP, without any elevator mixed in. Whereas the pilot inputs both DCP and elevator at the same time. Should be fine for an "emergency levelling switch" though, and perhaps also for flying around with some stabilization gain. We'll see... :mrgreen:

Attached some more pics here. Note that the Aileron and Pitch servos for the rear head needed to be swapped around which was kindly pointed out to me by leapfrog. Would have discovered this when installing the head of course... Must have been running late

BTW2: if you'd like to see it for real, I plan to bring it to the circumgyration event at the Bayside RC club in Fremont this weekend! I won't be flying it yet though, but you can have a look at it if you like! :mrgreen:
See www.circumgyration.com for more information.
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File Type: jpg right_front.jpg (2.28 MB, 328 views)
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:20 AM   #39
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Note that Leapfrog has a thread with his experiences too, with very nice detailed pics! Check it out on: http://www.thetrexforums.com/index.php?topic=1465.0 and then come straight back to helifreak of course...
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Old 05-18-2007, 06:49 AM   #40
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Looking great Gra55h0pper!!

One thought, the full scale 47 has one wheel and tire on each side of the rear of the aircraft. Is there anyway to recreate this detail?
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