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Old 11-07-2008, 12:58 PM   #41
joco
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Maybe we should approach one of the dealers around here to create a entry-level contest heli.
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Old 11-07-2008, 01:08 PM   #42
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Would be very cool to see a demo done at the IRCHA noon-time demos. Get a chance for many people to see an FAI/F3C type flight in person.
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Old 11-07-2008, 01:13 PM   #43
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yeah... have Scott Gray do a 110mph fly by with his slyphide... that should turn a few heads
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Old 11-07-2008, 03:01 PM   #44
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Actually a demo was done in 2007 and 2008... it wasnt specifically the whole schedule but it was a sampling of maneuvers. But the IRCHA people really didnt hype it up so I dont think people understood what was going on.
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Old 11-07-2008, 03:54 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by joco View Post
Actually a demo was done in 2007 and 2008... it wasnt specifically the whole schedule but it was a sampling of maneuvers. But the IRCHA people really didnt hype it up so I dont think people understood what was going on.
That's kinda interesting because Charles said himself that he's a contest kind of guy... I'd love to see more precision stuff over yet another "angry bumblebee" 3D flight.
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Old 11-07-2008, 03:55 PM   #46
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Actually a demo was done in 2007 and 2008... it wasnt specifically the whole schedule but it was a sampling of maneuvers. But the IRCHA people really didnt hype it up so I dont think people understood what was going on.
Hmm, really? Who flew the demo and when? Not to second guess you, just wondering. I was at IRCHA this year and don't remember seeing it.
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Old 11-07-2008, 04:47 PM   #47
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yeah... have Scott Gray do a 110mph fly by with his slyphide... that should turn a few heads

+1

Actually this thread has been really interesting for someone who has frequented the "contest" sub-forum. This thread has seen more action here than any thread there in sometime. Maybe it's just a little out of sight out of mind.

Maybe its time for some of the manufacturers to step up the presence a little, JR, Kyosho, and Futaba all have F3C pilots. Curtis Youngblood is also one and I understand he is very, very good.

I would like to see this topic continue for a while, and I'll do my part by asking this next question.

When will the FAI start strongly considering flybarless setups? I would like to see the FAI stay on top of the technology and capability curve, and it seems the infinite Bell-Hiller mixing capabilties and tuning could take contest flying to the next level.

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Old 11-07-2008, 06:09 PM   #48
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enahs.... Yea Scott flew late in the day on Saturday, outside the noon-demo times... he flew his Sylphide and did some amazing low inverted passes and some really HUGE fast hurricanes.

Thrasymedes... Actually if you talk with Curtis he says he cant wait until they allow flybarless in FAI... because then he will have an advantage over everyone else by still using bell/hiller mixing. He says that the the flybarless setups are not as "good for hovering stuff" and decreases stability. So take it for what its worth but it seems that flybarless is not the way to go for precision aerobatics.
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Old 11-07-2008, 06:25 PM   #49
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Quote:
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Maybe we should approach one of the dealers around here to create a entry-level contest heli.

Hirobo makes two of them...the EVO 90 and the EVO 50.

As a shameless plug for my own Kyosho, the Caliber 5/6 has proven to be a very stable, but very fast, bird..if setup per the usual contest parameters.
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Old 11-07-2008, 07:38 PM   #50
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Thrasymedes... Actually if you talk with Curtis he says he cant wait until they allow flybarless in FAI... because then he will have an advantage over everyone else by still using bell/hiller mixing. He says that the the flybarless setups are not as "good for hovering stuff" and decreases stability. So take it for what its worth but it seems that flybarless is not the way to go for precision aerobatics.
Gotchya, I wondered that myself. Maybe flybarless still has a way to go for precision. Yes, I have heard he flies a much more sensitive cyclic setup than most.

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As a shameless plug for my own Kyosho, the Caliber 5/6 has proven to be a very stable, but very fast, bird..if setup per the usual contest parameters.
Got my first $100 saved up for a Blitz Avro. Making me a little stash and taking it step at a time. Yeaaaaah, I would love to have a Caliber vs 06, love to, electric yeahhh, kontronic yeeaahhhhh, gy611 mmmhmmm, Rotor Techs woohooo, ooopps, I just woke up.......

Actually, for those reading, my Trex 600E is pretty stable, I've just not gone the typical 3D setup route. In no wind condition it will do no hands hovers, not in a single isolated spot, but drifting is minimal. In the wind not as precise as a 90 sized heli, but fairly locked. It won't compete with a dedicated FAI bird and it won't hit those high forward speeds, but there is no reason why a person couldn't practice these maneuvers with a Trex 600 by attending to the details of tuning and removing tolerance as much as possible. I'm not worried about having a Wayne Mann like rig, no way, that's his realm of $$$$$, but to his credit he has worked very hard and earned that way and right, very awesome pilot.
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Old 11-08-2008, 06:56 AM   #51
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I think flybarless would be too easy to setup for F3C. With a normal rotorhead you have to make and set it up for both hovering and upstairs, which is really hard with the same head. On a flybarless machine you can easily program other settings for each part of a FAI flight.
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Old 11-08-2008, 08:56 AM   #52
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I think flybarless would be too easy to setup for F3C. With a normal rotorhead you have to make and set it up for both hovering and upstairs, which is really hard with the same head. On a flybarless machine you can easily program other settings for each part of a FAI flight.
Sure, like a gyro, too much gyro for stability could take away aerobatic abilty, so from a mechanical gyro stand point I understand that point and the challenge. I'm reluctant to change away from my flybar because I'm getting in a direction that seems to work, but I will eventually go flybarless and start the process, probably over the winter. My hope is that the FAI will strongly consider it, as I do belive it will be the future of most rc helicopters. Less mechanical complication, tighter tolerances ratios due to less parts with less variability, possibly smoother operation and better power efficiency. I would hate to see the FAI fall behind in technology, which could be one more reason some flyers might say no thanks to presicion flight.

I think its just a matter of time, I could easily see a day where Futaba takes the 611 to the next level by making a 3 axis that is fully integrated with the radio, allowing not only changes but changes in flight, or a day when Align starts sending out 700's with less head parts and a skookum like 2 axis in a kit that is pre programmed for trainer/intermediate/3d levels.

But then again, the down curve in the economy could put some serious brakes on all of that, which would make everything I just said irrelevant for a couple of years.
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Old 11-08-2008, 09:45 AM   #53
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Someone should talk with Curtis... he was pretty adamant about how flybarless isnt as good as bell/hiller for F3C.
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Old 11-08-2008, 06:38 PM   #54
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I kind of have mixed feelings on the subject. On one hand, I think that contest flying is part flying skill, part setup skill, and part machine reliability. On the other hand, I like new tech and gadgets that really can make life easier without adding complexity.

Right now, anyone can assemble a flybar head, following the directions, and it will work as it's supposed to. A virtual flybar is very dependent on the user's understanding of things like Delta, Bell Ratio, Flybar Ratio, etc, as well as servo performance, vibration on the sensor unit(s), and linkage performance. As for the basic head settings, I understand that most VF systems have "canned" settings that users can program in, but some folks won't stop at that. Many folks have a hard enough time setting up a tail gyro/servo properly, so imagine the issues some may have with setting up a dual axis gyro and 3 servo control system.

On the flip side, it would be nice to have a dynamically stable system for hovering manuevers, then flip a switch to increase the Bell ratios, reduce the flybar ratios, etc and have snappy, precise aerobatic model. That brings new meaning to the term "flight mode".

I think that if we were to see VF systems employed for contest use, we may also see three or four blade heads used for gyroscopic mass. Who knows??
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Old 11-09-2008, 09:02 PM   #55
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Default Judging Criteria for AMA Classes

The following text has been pulled directly from the AMA rulebook for AMA Class 1,2, and 3. I cleaned it up a bit for clarity here:
Purpose. This is to furnish an accurate description of helicopter maneuvers and their judging criteria as a reference for use in developing a uniformly high standard of judging. This also should serve as a guide for the contestant to understand scoring criteria.
Principles. Judging a helicopter maneuver should be based upon the perfection with which the helicopter executes the maneuver as described. The main principles used to judge the degree of perfection are:
Precision of the maneuver.
Smoothness and gracefulness of themaneuver.
Positioning of the maneuver.
Consistent Judging. The most important aspect of consistent judging is for each judge to establish his standard and then maintain that standard throughout the contest. It is advisable for the Contest Director or organizer to hold a conference prior to the start to discuss judging and make the standards as uniform as possible. This can be effected by using practice flights in which all judges score privately. After each flight, the defects in each maneuver should be discussed by all judges and agreement reached about the severity of the defects. Once the contest is started, the individual judge should not alter his standard under any influence.
Accurate Judging. Of equal importance to consistency is accuracy in judging. Being consistent, either high or low, is not good enough if the scores awarded are not a fair reflection of the maneuver performed.
Final Mark. The final mark will be between zero (0) and ten (10) to include one-half points.
Perfect Marks. Flawless maneuvers are rarely observed in competition, but every flawless maneuver should be awarded a 10.
Downgrades. Variations noted should be downgraded; the more serious the error, the greater the downgrade. The judge must keep in mind the overall maneuver in order not to overpenalize any given element of the maneuver.
Wind Correction. All maneuvers are required to be wind corrected so that the shape of the maneuver is preserved.
Terms. The following terms are used to describe maneuvers and are used in the downgrading guidelines. The intent is to identify specifically what is expected whenever the term is used.
Takeoff. The helicopter should rise smoothly from the helipad with a vertical ascent to the altitude described, without movement, either horizontally or about the yaw axis.
Stop. All stops must remain stationary for not less than two (2) seconds. Stops of less than two (2) seconds should be more severely downgraded than poor stops that meet the two (2) second criteria.
Horizontal Hovering Line. The helicopter moves from one (1) point to another with constant altitude, speed, and heading. The helicopter also must stay in the vertical plane between the two (2) points it is traversing. All lines should be flown at a consistent pace, both individually and as a whole for the maneuver.
Pirouettes. The helicopter rotates slowly and at a constant pace through 360 degrees. The helicopter does not move either horizontally or vertically.
Landing. The helicopter should descend smoothly and vertically to the helipad, without movement, horizontally or about the yaw axis. The helicopter should land smoothly, with no more than a very short hesitation between the vertical descent and the landing. If the helicopter lands with the skids completely outside the helipad, a severe downgrade should be made. A perfect mark can be awarded only if the landing is centered in the helipad. When the helicopter does not land in the center of the helipad and the next maneuver requires a takeoff, it may be hovered to the center of the helipad prior to the beginning of the next maneuver without penalty. The helicopter may not be touched and any hover involved must not exceed one (1) foot in altitude.
Pilot Position. For Classes I, II, III shall be fixed to a 2 meter circle which is 9 meters from the center of the central helipad, directly in line with the center judge. If the pilot moves from the fixed position from the beginning to the end of the flight, a severe downgrade shall be imposed.
Helicopter Attitude. During hovering maneuvers, the actual attitude of the helicopter is primarily influenced by the wind direction and strength and is not a consideration in scoring.
Hover Positioning. Generally, this is a vertical placement of the helicopter over a reference point (e.g., flag) described in the maneuver. The reference point on the helicopter is the rotor shaft.
Maneuver Position. All flight maneuvers must be flown within the judging window. This area is approximately 60 degrees vertically and 90 degrees horizontally from the central helipad. Any maneuver flown partially outside this window should be severely downgraded. Any maneuver flown entirely outside this window should receive a mark of zero (0). All flight maneuvers are started or centered at a specific position, generally the “midline.” Maneuvers flown out of position should be downgraded according to the misplacement. Judges who are not positioned on the “midline” must be careful not to perceive positioning errors due to their slightly angled view. Flying so far out, so close in, or so high as to make evaluation of a maneuver difficult should be severely downgraded.
Eye Level. The skids or undercarriage of the helicopter should be approximately at the height of the pilot’s eyes. Naturally, this varies with different pilots. The judge should consider all the elements to be flown at eye level as a group. Because the eye level height is considered a safety requirement, a more severe downgrade should generally be given for being low as opposed to high.
Entry and Exit Lines. All flight maneuvers are started and ended by a horizontal line that is parallel to the horizon and the flightline. Entry and exit lines must be no shorter than described for a particular maneuver. Lines longer than required should not be downgraded so long as the entry and exit lines are reasonable and of approximately the same length. The actual attitude of the helicopter need not be level. It is the flight path that is being scored.
Smoothness. During all parts of flying maneuvers, the helicopter must maintain smooth flight which is free of wobbles, bobbles, oscillations, and segmentations.
If you have any questions in regards to the rules, please field them here.
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Old 11-10-2008, 05:53 PM   #56
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Wind Correction. All maneuvers are required to be wind corrected so that the shape of the maneuver is preserved.
I just want to make sure of this one. I have heard that the judges are suppose to judge as if the wind were not there. Is this true no matter how much and when? Even if contestant 1 has 0 wind, and contestant 5 has to counter a 15mph gust, the intent is to be good enough to make wind invisible?

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Smoothness. During all parts of flying maneuvers, the helicopter must maintain smooth flight which is free of wobbles, bobbles, oscillations, and segmentations.
Ahhh crap.......
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Old 11-10-2008, 06:13 PM   #57
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Default Wind Correction

Yes, you have to use collective, cyclic, or even rudder to counter any wind drift. For example, to do a proper stall turn: enter into the wind, and pull a smooth radius to a vertical line. You will have to use whatever collective to maintain that line straight above from the end of the radius. In this case, you will need negative collective during the vertical climb, stall turn, and downline until you pull a radius up to straight and level flight. For a loop with a crosswind, you have to enter the loop with a slight lean into the wind, and basically corkscrew the heli into the wind as it goes around the loop. How much is determined by the wind, and takes practice to figure out.
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Old 11-10-2008, 07:59 PM   #58
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that's the part of precision flying that impresses me the most.. some of those videos being posted are on windy days...yet, they make it look like a calm day at the field...
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Old 11-26-2008, 07:58 PM   #59
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So folks, any more questions, comments, or ideas?

We are all ears out here
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Old 11-26-2008, 09:21 PM   #60
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well... until I can get the money together for a decent .50 or larger heli.. I'll have to make do with my Hurricane 550... at least .30 size is better than a 450 for this

I do want to try and get the class one part down pretty good as soon as possible... then convince my wife that we need to take a vacation to tampa in march
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