Fun, Learning, Friendship and Mutual Respect START  HERE


Unregistered
Go Back   HeliFreak > R/C Helicopters > Main Forum - Helicopter Talk


Main Forum - Helicopter Talk R/C Helicopters and the people who fly them. VENDOR TOPICS DO NOT GO HERE. Full Scale Heli threads go in OT please


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-22-2016, 06:30 AM   #41
sutty
Registered Users
 
Posts: 9,915
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Manchester, England
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luvmyhelis View Post
I can't help but wonder if some smart guy here integrated that into another system and made it work?
jmann841 did this successfully in March last year. I sent him the vario and he programmed his Taranis in less than a minute, or so he said. Here is the thread where he reported the results.

Auto bailout.

If this is what you mean about has it been done before.
__________________
Regards, Sutty
BeltEXI, mCX, mSR, 4G3, FBL Trex250SE B, FBL Trex450Pro B,
FBL Trex550e VX1 Pro, FBL Trex600ESP VX1e, Parkzone P51D, QRX350Pro
sutty is online now        Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2016, 09:22 AM   #42
gunny_jeeves
Registered Users
 
Posts: 4,110
 

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Carrollton, GA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sutty View Post
jmann841 did this successfully in March last year. I sent him the vario and he programmed his Taranis in less than a minute, or so he said. Here is the thread where he reported the results.

Auto bailout.

If this is what you mean about has it been done before.
Yep that was the first one I found.

I was looking at ways to add a hard deck. Need an altimeter, self leveling and some code to say: if altitude < X do self level and pitch up. That's it. So I was actually looking for the videos of the old Revolectric Copilot 2 Hard deck... (To explain the feature to the Ardupilot coder better) I originally put up $1000 toward building a Hard deck into the Arducopter code. Found his video... And the thread on HF. I was kinda blown away. I had a Taranis so I tried it. Yep! Works a charm! So the money went to my first Jeti.

Further digging, and you can do this the following ways only as of now:

1. Skookum 720 BE +GPS. (Just check the option and plug in height. Any TX) that's a $900 per model option.
3. Jeti - needs a Jeti TX, R3 or any tx with an EXT port, and an altimeter. TX cost plus on DX14 license cost of logical switches and telemetry actions. Per model cost of $120 ($60 RX and ALT with 11% discount)
4. Taranis - With Frsky RX and Altimeter ($20 RX and $20 Alt = $40 per model)
5. Turnigy 9XR Pro (or any 9X with Smartyboard) using either FrSky module and telemetry in... Or the permanently sold out Spektrum DSMX module with Telemetry.
****** That is the only way to do this with Spektrum protocols.

A couple of others are close... Devention has a logical switch function but it can't be driven by telemetry yet... It's likely to be the first to be capable of out the gate Spektrum hard deck.

Required features are simple but only on OpenTX and Jeti. Takes a capability to read a telemetry number, and cause an action (in the mixer) due to that telemetry "switch". Very sick feature for a TX!

I thought more people would post the secret sauce to do it for any telemetry capable setup... Turns out all other TXs stop at being able to display it, beep it at you or read it to you. That's all the telemetry you get.
gunny_jeeves is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2016, 07:42 AM   #43
LinusLarsson
Registered Users
 
Posts: 863
 

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Sweden
Default

I am very much uncertain this telemetry as a switch is the way forward for other manufacturers. You must have considered that this rely on an extra transmitter/receiver to actually function. What if you lose telemetry for one reason or another? Is the telemetry signal as robust as the transmitter signal? What about latency? While an hard deck isn't exactly mission critical what if you built something where you would 100% crash if you lose telemetry. I'm doubt other major manufacturers will go down that path. It opens one hell of a can of functionality, but is it really implemented correctly?

I think these kind of things should be done on onboard computers like the skookum unit. For more programmability look at how the VBar NEO works with the macrocells. It runs actual programs on the NEO, while there is no altimeter so this can't be built it's easy to see that the foundation is more sound. Keeping the telemetry as just telemetry.
__________________
Trex 700E DFC - Logo 690SX - Goblin 700 - Gaui R5 - V-Bar Control
V-Bar Control flight analyzer (Win/OSX/Linux) - Latest release v4.2.4 May 17 - 2016
Sleipnir timing system - How fast can you fly?
Only the ground is the limit!
LinusLarsson is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2016, 08:34 AM   #44
gunny_jeeves
Registered Users
 
Posts: 4,110
 

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Carrollton, GA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LinusLarsson View Post
I am very much uncertain this telemetry as a switch is the way forward for other manufacturers. You must have considered that this rely on an extra transmitter/receiver to actually function. What if you lose telemetry for one reason or another? Is the telemetry signal as robust as the transmitter signal? What about latency? While an hard deck isn't exactly mission critical what if you built something where you would 100% crash if you lose telemetry. I'm very much uncertain other manufacturers will go this route.It opens one hell of a can of functionality, but is it really implemented correctly?

I think these kind of things should be done on onboard computers like the skookum unit. For more programmability look at how the VBar NEO works with the macrocells. It runs actual programs on the NEO, while there is no altimeter so this can't be built it's easy to see that the foundation is more sound. Keeping the telemetry as just telemetry.
While yes, I agree with you on that... I think in particular with Jeti, Yes the telemetry signal is integrated tightly enough to not be lost, and FrSky my experience is that it will not be lost in the ranges of a 3D heli flight anyway, The Hard Deck ideally should be in the FBL. (Onboard)

Do I think it's a feature worthy of a $900 price point? Absolutely not. Could it be done as a separate onboard system for a few dollars (Likely 25-30?) Absolutely!

A simple Arduino chip and altimeter could be set up (Between RX and FBL) to read in PPM CH8 and via USB set the proper channel, sequence to override to get bail out... (Either Bailout channel value or self level on + pitch override.)

At the time, I was willing to put $1000 toward that feature's inclusion into a $75 FBL unit with an altimeter, and a good one, built in. That said, the telemetry option is a very solid one.

I also think that long term, telemetry needs to be more full range. (As I understand it, the Jeti telemetry is... and from my own experience, the FrSky is as well.) Spektrum is NOT. Even so, the range is long enough to be valuable as a tool for 3D flying or helis up to 450 size for even Spektrum range. (They just don't have that option.)

Depending on the models you have, you can find more uses for this telemetry as a switch capability. Jets --> Inhibit landing gear at over 50 mph... and auto raise it at 70mph...

Telemetry would not have caught on at all if it were merely a gimmick. Fact is, we all want to fly more intelligently. That means access to more data... If I were going to predict the future? I'd say the next advancement, and likely to come from OpenTX or Jeti, will allow event detection and correlation. Combinations of events (logical switches) made up of other switches, real, telemetry and logical, to detect and respond to much more important and valuable conditions such as flight envelope errors... (Plank - Bump throttle to avoid a tip stall... Detect a flat spin and initiate the recovery sequence. Heli - Calculate a collision with the ground and rescue just before that is imminent which might eliminate a formal hard deck without inhibiting take-off and landing.) IE: A right-side-up heli under control is not going to be a problem while hovering or coming in for a landing or in an auto... yet no heli lands while spinning or upside down... or while in FFF... or sideways.

*** You could in theory do an inverted speed pass about 10 feet off the deck without triggering the hard deck... however do a full collective hurricane at 20 feet up and blip the wrong way and DO trigger the recovery. (Because if the controls don't change you will be on the ground within the time your rescue takes to recover.) Knowing that is how far ahead the process would look.

In short I think any safeguards and potential advanced safeguards are all good. As is anything that may assist the pilot.

$900 worth of Skookum gets me a pretty bullet-proof hard deck... Granted... But $900 worth of Jeti gets me two models worth that I'd wager are just as bulletproof... plus anything else I can come up with... and $900 of Frsky equips your whole fleet with this level of stuff.
gunny_jeeves is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2016, 03:55 PM   #45
Epoweredrc
Registered Users
 
Posts: 10,590
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Tallapossa, GA
Default

Anything can fail..whole radios just stop working. I have had it happen to me. Nothing is 100% to work 100% of the time

Sent from my SM-S920L using Tapatalk
__________________
XK252,K120,Cpx450 ZYX,,Trex600 Beastx, Gremlin,POD Racer, GLH,Whipit,Z-84, Elelctric Shock AMA 27 yrs.


Epoweredrc is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2016, 08:20 PM   #46
everydayflyer
Registered Users
 

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Haralson County GA USA
Default

I have 25 flights on the 690 now and it is doing well and I am enjoying it more with each flight. Still just FFF , 180 Stall Turns nothing very exciting. My Son Epoweredrc has flow it 5 or six times and shown me how well it loops , rolls and hangs inverted .

Only issue to date is that Vario likes to jump around a great deal. Hard Deck set for 39 ft. and lowest Alt reported(with HD hit ) was 24 ft. so still safe however when crusing along at 80 to 100 ft. reading jump from 90 to 180 or so when I know real change was more like 20 to 30 ft..

I am going to try wraping some open cell foam around the Vario to see if that will help. One of the Quad Flyers on RC Groups made that suggestion.

Flight time are long. Timer set for 7-1/2 min and never over 2,000 mAh used to date. I should have purchased 3000 to 3300 Li Pos instead of 4000 and 5000 ones. No big deal these are living a very easy life and should last a very long time. Head Speed 1140 with fresh battery and 1080 after 6-1/2 minutes. HAve not checked since bumping up the timer from 6-1/2 to 7-1/2 .
__________________
mS/R --3ea. mCPX 2 converted to BL 4ea. mCPX BL 2ea. BL-130X
400 FBL ,.Blade 450X ikon Blade 450X with Ar7200BX
Blade 300X MIcroheli CF frame many upgrades 230S , LOGO 690 Brain / HD , Trex 450 Pro with Brain ,planks...
everydayflyer is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2016, 08:29 PM   #47
gunny_jeeves
Registered Users
 
Posts: 4,110
 

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Carrollton, GA
Default

Yeah. You're giving it a workout for the hard deck calc. It's based on pressure, so gusty wind conditions will make the variance worse... But it's reliable to me. Just set the hard deck to about double what it recovers at with the switch for bailout. 20 feet becomes 40.. Tada! As long as it hits it by 20, you're good.
gunny_jeeves is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2016, 09:23 PM   #48
volar
Registered Users
 
Posts: 213
 

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Hialeah, USA
Default

Has anyone tried incorporating the Power Box gpsII sensor for a hard deck or any other capacity. I was interested in monitoring speed but not compatible with Jr.

https://www.powerbox-systems.com/pro...re/gps-ii.html
__________________
Logo 550SX / 480x / T450pro
volar is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2016, 01:45 PM   #49
Epoweredrc
Registered Users
 
Posts: 10,590
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Tallapossa, GA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by volar View Post
Has anyone tried incorporating the Power Box gpsII sensor for a hard deck or any other capacity. I was interested in monitoring speed but not compatible with Jr.

https://www.powerbox-systems.com/pro...re/gps-ii.html
Never heard of that one, but frsky makes a gps just not sure how well it works i might get one and try it. if i ever get this other taranis tx programmed so i can even fly a heli lol
__________________
XK252,K120,Cpx450 ZYX,,Trex600 Beastx, Gremlin,POD Racer, GLH,Whipit,Z-84, Elelctric Shock AMA 27 yrs.


Epoweredrc is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2016, 08:44 PM   #50
Weule
Registered Users
 
Posts: 539
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Fremont, CA
Default

Is there a video out there showing a successful hard deck save from a reasonably hard flight? What is a reasonable deck height?

Most of my crashes happen faster than jeti telemetry

Sent from my LG-D851 using Tapatalk
__________________
Goblins (380, 500, 700)
Weule is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2016, 09:52 PM   #51
everydayflyer
Registered Users
 

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Haralson County GA USA
Default

SImple answer is that if you want Hard Deck to save you flying Smack 3D down low the perhaps a $750 will do it but nothing less costly I am aware of. Several $200 range FBl with true Rescue will save you at 3 ft. if you hit the panic switch fast enough.


Video of Brain2 Rescue due to be released aroun 3 weeks.

https://www.helifreak.com/showthread...hlight=Brain+2

ANother video somewhat better with inverted fairly low Rescus.

https://www.helifreak.com/showpost.p...&postcount=207


Hard Deck on Logo 690 ,(subject of this thread) cost extra $25 and seems to work at above 40 ft. but I have not tried to crash it either. I have had it bounch off of the HD but I was already mostly level and upright.
__________________
mS/R --3ea. mCPX 2 converted to BL 4ea. mCPX BL 2ea. BL-130X
400 FBL ,.Blade 450X ikon Blade 450X with Ar7200BX
Blade 300X MIcroheli CF frame many upgrades 230S , LOGO 690 Brain / HD , Trex 450 Pro with Brain ,planks...

Last edited by everydayflyer; 06-01-2016 at 09:31 AM..
everydayflyer is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2016, 09:26 AM   #52
gunny_jeeves
Registered Users
 
Posts: 4,110
 

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Carrollton, GA
Default

How well the hard deck in telemetry performs is a mix of:

Head Speed (Higher makes the heli more responsive.)
Agility settings in the FBL (You'd want max 3D Aggressive settings)
Accuracy (+-1 foot on HP / +-1 meter on LP) of the altimeter
And latency of the signal.

So with all this "Maxed" - I'd say you might reliably get to where it can be set at 20 feet.

If it is set at 20 feet, on say a very high head speed heli, with fast servos, even coming in full power inverted it should be quick enough to rescue flipping and climbing back out. With an onboard system (No latency) you might get better, but IMHO, not enough to justify the $900 price point.

The layman terms of what makes rescue work better are:
How fast can the heli react? High head speed makes it capable of really fast reactions.
How quick can the heli upright itself? 180 degree flip. Your FBL will limit that speed so the heli is more controllable. If you set the highest setting, the servos are the only limiting factor, and this is FAST!

Tuning - Set the hard deck extremely high. Like 90 feet. And test. I like to set it to call out the height. Stay just above 90 feet inverted, (Or level, then just go full negative pitch) and come down hard right after the announce.

That should be worst case. Next pulse will trigger the hard deck, so it will likely be the full delay. Repeat this a few times and you will know about how high you need to set the hard deck. IE: If you set it at 90 and it reliably triggers about 70... takes to about 55 to go up... You can get away with 35 feet. An aggressive heli will do so much faster.
gunny_jeeves is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2016, 01:16 PM   #53
everydayflyer
Registered Users
 

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Haralson County GA USA
Default

Has anyone used a under $100 GPS with a Taranis for hard Deck?

Anyone used a FMA Co Pilot II Hard Deck Vario setup with a Taranis , reported to be accurate to withing a couple of feet form any orientation and at angle flight angle.

Added: I ordered the FMA Hard Deck minus the Vario and will enclose a Taranis one and give it a try as my next project. Today I placed the Taranis Vario in a semi sealed plastic bottle and weather permiing will test it in the next day or two.
__________________
mS/R --3ea. mCPX 2 converted to BL 4ea. mCPX BL 2ea. BL-130X
400 FBL ,.Blade 450X ikon Blade 450X with Ar7200BX
Blade 300X MIcroheli CF frame many upgrades 230S , LOGO 690 Brain / HD , Trex 450 Pro with Brain ,planks...

Last edited by everydayflyer; 06-06-2016 at 09:08 PM..
everydayflyer is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2016, 09:11 PM   #54
everydayflyer
Registered Users
 

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Haralson County GA USA
Default

Flew the Logo 690 today with Variometer inside plastic bottle with opening to insert the Vario sealed with a piece of open cell foam stuffed inside and it worked great. FFF at around 100 ft. and readout stayed within a 20 ft range unlike the 100 ft plus range before.

Tomorrow I should be able to test fly Trex 450Pro with Brain updated to 2.0 with Rescue . This is going to make setting up and tuning a HD alot simpler I do believe. Got to watch EpoweredRC flying his Copter X with my old iKon with new 2.0 today and Rescue was very impressive.
__________________
mS/R --3ea. mCPX 2 converted to BL 4ea. mCPX BL 2ea. BL-130X
400 FBL ,.Blade 450X ikon Blade 450X with Ar7200BX
Blade 300X MIcroheli CF frame many upgrades 230S , LOGO 690 Brain / HD , Trex 450 Pro with Brain ,planks...
everydayflyer is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 06:17 AM   #55
CZorzella
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Brazil, SP, Sao Paulo
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by everydayflyer View Post
Flew the Logo 690 today with Variometer inside plastic bottle with opening to insert the Vario sealed with a piece of open cell foam stuffed inside and it worked great. FFF at around 100 ft. and readout stayed within a 20 ft range unlike the 100 ft plus range before.
Would you please post a photo of the setup you did using the plastic bottle?

Carlos
CZorzella is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 09:35 AM   #56
everydayflyer
Registered Users
 

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Haralson County GA USA
Default

Perhaps I will post a photo but it may take me a while to Get A Round To It. I used a 50 ml. Vaping Liquid bottle as it was handy as myself and wife vape. A pill bottle with a snap on flexable lid would be better. Bottle just needs to be large enough to hold Variometer and you need an opening (Slot) to get the wires to it. A flexable top can be cut cross pattern and vario connectors wire leads can be pushed thru the slot. Put a little open cell foam in arount the Vario to secure it from bounching arount and mount the bottle with whatever suit you. I put fuzzy velcro on one side of bottle, servo mounting tape on the other side, servo tape against side of heli frame and a velcro strap around frame and bottle,


I have used 35 mm film containers for years to protect my Anderson Power Pole conectors on my 12V Deep Cycle BAttery used for field charging. They are getting harder to find as most have gone Digital. If you can find a film bottle cut the slots in the bottom instead of the top (cap).


Note: I used a flat stick (craft / popcicle) to hold the slot open while inserting the Vario leads..
__________________
mS/R --3ea. mCPX 2 converted to BL 4ea. mCPX BL 2ea. BL-130X
400 FBL ,.Blade 450X ikon Blade 450X with Ar7200BX
Blade 300X MIcroheli CF frame many upgrades 230S , LOGO 690 Brain / HD , Trex 450 Pro with Brain ,planks...

Last edited by everydayflyer; 06-08-2016 at 07:17 PM..
everydayflyer is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2016, 03:56 PM   #57
Epoweredrc
Registered Users
 
Posts: 10,590
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Tallapossa, GA
Default

Here is a couple pictures of everydayflyer vario in a bottle





Sent from my SM-S920L using Tapatalk
__________________
XK252,K120,Cpx450 ZYX,,Trex600 Beastx, Gremlin,POD Racer, GLH,Whipit,Z-84, Elelctric Shock AMA 27 yrs.


Epoweredrc is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2016, 08:07 AM   #58
CZorzella
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Brazil, SP, Sao Paulo
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by everydayflyer View Post
I used a 50 ml. Vaping Liquid bottle...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epoweredrc View Post
Here is a couple pictures of everydayflyer vario in a bottle
Thank you both for the clarifications and photos.

Carlos
CZorzella is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2016, 05:51 PM   #59
everydayflyer
Registered Users
 

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Haralson County GA USA
Default

My modified application of the FMA Co Pilot II Hard Deck hardware is completed and installed on the Logo 690. I really have next to no open area at my house but I did manage a Hover up to 15 feet even with gusty winds and it sure seems to be working well. Hope in the next day or two I make it to the field to give it a decent test.
__________________
mS/R --3ea. mCPX 2 converted to BL 4ea. mCPX BL 2ea. BL-130X
400 FBL ,.Blade 450X ikon Blade 450X with Ar7200BX
Blade 300X MIcroheli CF frame many upgrades 230S , LOGO 690 Brain / HD , Trex 450 Pro with Brain ,planks...
everydayflyer is offline        Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2016, 07:51 AM   #60
Epoweredrc
Registered Users
 
Posts: 10,590
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Tallapossa, GA
Default

Pictures of the harddeck modified










Sent from my SM-S920L using Tapatalk
__________________
XK252,K120,Cpx450 ZYX,,Trex600 Beastx, Gremlin,POD Racer, GLH,Whipit,Z-84, Elelctric Shock AMA 27 yrs.


Epoweredrc is offline        Reply With Quote
Reply




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



Copyright © 2004-2016 by RCGroups.com, LLC except where otherwise indicated. The HeliFreak.com logo is a trademark of RCGroups.com, LLC.