Need advise on motor for my first 600 scale - HeliFreak
Fun, Learning, Friendship and Mutual Respect START  HERE


Unregistered
Go Back   HeliFreak > R/C Helicopter Support > Scale Helicopters > Power Systems


Power Systems Power Systems Discussion


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-12-2012, 03:53 AM   #1 (permalink)
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Sydney
Default Need advise on motor for my first 600 scale

Hi

I am getting a Marvel Craft Bell 412 fuselage for my old Trex 600E. The motor on the Trex is an Align motor 1650KV.
I have got the flybarless 2 blades conversion for it and Skookum SK720. I have few 6s 5000mah lipos that I can use with this.
Is the 1650kv motor too high to use for this?, if so, which motor and KV should I upgrade the motor to for a 2 blade fbl?
Should I stay with 6s or go for 12s lipo?

Any advise would be much appreciated.

Thanks
cougar2465 is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 08-12-2012, 09:48 AM   #2 (permalink)
HF Scale Support
 
Posts: 2,463
 

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
Default

It does depend on your desired head speed. If you are going for a fairly scale look, somthing between 1550 and 1700 would be a nice rpm range. The 1650kv with the stock 10t pinion and 170t main will not get you there but dropping to the 1100kv range with a governor will and using a 14t pinion. I have a 550 size Jet Ranger (same power train as the 600) that I have an 890kv motor with a 16t pinion and 170t main gear. I get 1600 rpm as a top governed speed but am currently running 1550 rpm with 550mm blades and the results are very nice.

You could use a governor and lower the head speed on your bird as it is but it may prove too much for your ESC. You might get 1900 rpm without overheating the ESC or even down to 1850 but it will seem too much for the Huey. The setup I am using is 6s and so are the stats for the 1100 kv motor abive. Hope this helps.

Don
Keyrigger is online now        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-12-2012, 11:17 AM   #3 (permalink)
 

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Indiana , Muncie
Default

As for the motor 800Kv - 1000Kv is a good range to try and stay in for a 6s powered 600 size heli.

There are guys on here that will say that a 12s setup is the way to go and if we were talking 3D I would have to agree with them , but we're not.

The truth is for scale flying a 6s setup does great if all items are of quality and rated properly.

I'm running a 6s 6000mah 20C pack through a HobbyWing 80amp Platinum ESC into a Z-power A50-800 motor with an 11t pinion swingging 700mm blades , and everything runs cool to the touch for 11 -12 minutes in a Century ( Fun-Key ) 60 size Long Ranger fuselage.

The one thing about slowing your HS down you need to keep an eye on is your tail rotor authority.
When you slow the HS down you also slow down you tail rotor speed as well , however its ratio can be changed and sped back up or correct a couple different ways.

On my 700 I run a very low HS 1050 but yet I have very good tail authority due to speeding up the tail rotor speed with Thunder Tiger Titan tail drive pulleys.
Cap231ex is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-12-2012, 10:25 PM   #4 (permalink)
Registered Users
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Sydney
Default

Thanks guys

I will get 800kv - 1000kv. Any recommendation for good motor and esc, type model?

Ini regards to the tail authority, will 4 blade tail rotor help to compensate the lower RPM?
cougar2465 is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-13-2012, 03:43 AM   #5 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 4,193
 

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Default

To calculate it;

RPM = Motor kV x (3.7V x cells) x ).9 (efficiency) x Pinion teeth / Main gear teeth

Note that many 600 sized motors have 6mm shafts, and the smallest (reliable) Mod 0.7 pinion would be 13T. You do get 12T, but I have had one shatter and read about 2-3 others that have done the same.

So, for a 6s stock 600, 1650kV, 2 blades, 1500 - 1600rpm headspeed governed (so aim for around 1.1x this at 100%);

1650 x 22.2 x 0.9 x 13T / 170T = 2520rpm @ 100%, so to get 1500rpm, you would need to run the ESC at 60%, which for most ESCs would not be a good idea.

With a 1100kV motor, the headspeed would drop to 1680rpm @ 100%, so 1500rpm would be 89%, which is fine.

A 800kV motor to get the same headspeed would require a 18T pinion, which is OK, but I personally would not go that route. Around 800kV would probably be better for a 8s setup. There are plenty of 1100kV motors around.

Bear in mind that Scorpion recommend oiling regularly which is not ideal for a large scale heli, so I would stay away from them. I have read of several people complaining about vibes on Align 600 motors (measured with SK720). I run Xera motors on my larger scalies, but they are harder to find currently. Perhaps Hyperion - they are copies of Scorpion, but don't seem to need the oiling.

For a 6s setup, I would suggest a CC Ice 100 ESC - nice soft start for scale, good governor, data logger etc.

Colin
__________________
Vario Long Ranger 700e
Seahawk 600
UH-1N 500
Baumann EC-145 800+ (coming soon )
Andy01 is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-13-2012, 06:11 AM   #6 (permalink)
Registered Users
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Sydney
Default

I might get this Hyperion motors but has 5mm shaft?

http://www.hyperionaustralia.com.au/?stg=552&view=552

And this esc

http://www.wiredrc.com.au/shop/speed...0-amp-esc.html

Any comment on them?

Thanks again for your advise guys.
cougar2465 is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-13-2012, 12:56 PM   #7 (permalink)
 

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Indiana , Muncie
Default

I would stay as far away from anything Castle Creations makes as you can.
Any company that knowingly ships out defective product then blames its customers as the reason their ESC's burnt up is a sad excuse for a company.

HobbyWing makes some very affordable and nicely featured ESC's that are much more durable than anything CC offers. Besides the CC governor simple can not keep a lower scale heli's HS content , and the HobbyWing ESC's let you use the governor that is built-in to the V-Bar and Skookum FBL units CC does not. They also offer a super soft start-up that gives you an almost life-like real 1:1 start-up , I am using them on 6 of my 8 helis and just love them.

Also IMHO a HS of 1500-1680 on a 600 size scale heli is very , my 600 scaler is running a HS of 1250 and it is more like scale rather than a 3D or sport HS.
Cap231ex is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-13-2012, 01:55 PM   #8 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 587
 

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: USA, WA, Steilacoom
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cap231ex View Post
I would stay as far away from anything Castle Creations makes as you can.
Any company that knowingly ships out defective product then blames its customers as the reason their ESC's burnt up is a sad excuse for a company.

HobbyWing makes some very affordable and nicely featured ESC's that are much more durable than anything CC offers. Besides the CC governor simple can not keep a lower scale heli's HS content , and the HobbyWing ESC's let you use the governor that is built-in to the V-Bar and Skookum FBL units CC does not. They also offer a super soft start-up that gives you an almost life-like real 1:1 start-up , I am using them on 6 of my 8 helis and just love them.

Also IMHO a HS of 1500-1680 on a 600 size scale heli is very , my 600 scaler is running a HS of 1250 and it is more like scale rather than a 3D or sport HS.
The 1250 head speed, is that with a two bladed heli? I can't go below 1400 on my 600 MD500 with 4 or 5 blade head and two blade tail (105mm tail blades) if I go below 1400 it starts drifting and loosing tail authority. This is a torque tube setup and 12S
JoseReyes is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-13-2012, 02:22 PM   #9 (permalink)
 

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Indiana , Muncie
Default

I only run belt driven tails , one to save weight off the tail as all scale fuselages are tail heavy and two so I can change the tail ratio using a Thunder Tiger 8t tail rotor pulley with a standard 9t Align front drive pulley.
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXAHBR&P=0

I have this combo on both my 600 and my 700 and my 700 I can go as low as 920 on the HS with 100mm narrow scale tail blades on my Century Long Ranger.
Cap231ex is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-13-2012, 02:26 PM   #10 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 587
 

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: USA, WA, Steilacoom
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cap231ex View Post
I only run belt driven tails , one to save weight off the tail as all scale fuselages are tail heavy and two so I can change the tail ratio using a Thunder Tiger 8t tail rotor pulley with a standard 9t Align front drive pulley.
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXAHBR&P=0

I have this combo on both my 600 and my 700 and my 700 I can go as low as 920 on the HS with 100mm narrow scale tail blades on my Century Long Ranger.

Nice to know information... Torque tube is not that forgiven as I can't adjust the tail... something to think about. Could the belt conversion be done with a 12S setup on a 600?
JoseReyes is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-13-2012, 03:27 PM   #11 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 4,193
 

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cap231ex View Post
I would stay as far away from anything Castle Creations makes as you can.
Any company that knowingly ships out defective product then blames its customers as the reason their ESC's burnt up is a sad excuse for a company.

HobbyWing makes some very affordable and nicely featured ESC's that are much more durable than anything CC offers. Besides the CC governor simple can not keep a lower scale heli's HS content , and the HobbyWing ESC's let you use the governor that is built-in to the V-Bar and Skookum FBL units CC does not. They also offer a super soft start-up that gives you an almost life-like real 1:1 start-up , I am using them on 6 of my 8 helis and just love them.

Also IMHO a HS of 1500-1680 on a 600 size scale heli is very , my 600 scaler is running a HS of 1250 and it is more like scale rather than a 3D or sport HS.
There have been very very few reported instances of failures on the CC Ice range (not Ice HV), so using them is quite low risk. I have run a Ice 75 in a Atom 500 for 3 years now and it has never missed a beat. Same applies to my 2 year old Ice 50.

I have also run two Ice 80HV ESCs for about a year before the recall, and 8 months since the recall and never had a problem with either. I do have an extra two capacitors installed though.

There are people using the Skookum governor with CC ESCs - you just need to be careful about the sensor you use.

I have my scale helis (with CC ESCs) set up for a spool-up of between 30 and 40 seconds, which is slow enough for me, although I could go a bit slower in the settings.

IMO 1250rpm is too slow for most 2 blade 600 helis. It can be done, especially if the tail can be sped up, but the OP seemed to be a bit worried about tail authority (hence question about 4 blade tail), so I would not recommend this as a starting point.

I have run my 4 blade (head and tail) Seahawk 600 at 1250rpm with TF Model scale 600mm blades, and it had plenty of lift. The tail authority with 4x 105mm blades was OK, although I had to adjust it for maximum pitch (around 35) because initially I was having intermittent tail break-outs with around 27 of tail pitch. The problem was that it did not do FF very well. Perhaps this was due to the scale blades, but it felt very mushy and porpoised a fair bit. So, could I do it - yes. Was it nice to fly - no. Would I do it with a 2 blade - no.

I run my 9kg Vario Long Ranger with 2x 710mm main blades and 2x 120mm tail blades at 1350rpm, and it flies very nicely. I have tried 1300rpm and it is fine in calm conditions, but not so good in wind.

Obviously it is up to the OP to do the homework, look at the budget and decide for himself what he wants to get. I would caution about stepping too far outside the "norm" regarding headspeed though as a first effort. Once there is a bit more experience, then perhaps some experimentation is OK, but probably better to stick with well charted waters at first.

Colin
__________________
Vario Long Ranger 700e
Seahawk 600
UH-1N 500
Baumann EC-145 800+ (coming soon )
Andy01 is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-13-2012, 04:54 PM   #12 (permalink)
Registered Users
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Sydney
Default

I will work for around 1500 hs with 2 blades 600mm fbl and also work on the tail and fine tune.
There is Hyperion motor 1100kv that I am interested in but the shaft is 5mm - would ths be ok?
I also had a look at hobby wing esc 100A. I am going to use 6s.
So based on the above I am guessing I should be fine achieving the hs needed for my scale.

Thanks again guys
cougar2465 is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-14-2012, 03:53 AM   #13 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 4,193
 

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Default

A 5mm shaft should be fine for scale where power and loads are fairly low. It will also allow you to safely go to a smaller pinion (12T) than a 6mm shaft.

The 100A ESC will be fine. My 4 blade 8kg/17lb Seahawk draws about 950W for scale circuits and a little more to hover. On 6s, this would be 950 / 22.2 = 42A, and add about 50% for peaks.

Colin
__________________
Vario Long Ranger 700e
Seahawk 600
UH-1N 500
Baumann EC-145 800+ (coming soon )
Andy01 is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply




Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the HeliFreak forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your REAL and WORKING email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself. Use a real email address or you will not be granted access to the site. Thank you.
Email Address:
Location
Where do you live? ie: Country, State, City or General Geographic Location please.
Name and Lastname
Enter name and last name here. (This information is not shown to the general public. Optional)
Helicopter #1
Enter Helicopter #1 type and equipment.
Helicopter #2
Enter Helicopter #2 type and equipment.
Helicopter #3
Enter Helicopter #3 type and equipment.
Helicopter #4
Enter Helicopter #4 type and equipment.

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




Copyright © Website Acquisitions Inc. All rights reserved.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1