CoPilot II / MicroBeast wire up..

[nightflyr]

Originally Posted by craig1980

Thanks nightflyr! Can you tell me how to get to get to the autotrim menu without going through the quick set up menu?

Scroll through preferences menu it should be there, if not you just need to do quick setup again.

[craig1980]

In response to the last post just a note that you do have to do quick setup again.

Now on to the good stuff!!!! First flight tonight!

For those using the beast x and a 7 channel rx if you follow this thread and take your time u will have success! Those who have more channels than it may be a little more simple.

Set the beast gain by connecting the cp2 to my computer and selecting yes to set channel 4 for gain. Then when setting through computer the beast x will light up to show you where your at. So if you check what letter your on prior to cp2 set up you can get it right on. I ended up at 41 on the cp2 unit.

I took the heli up and beast worked like normal. Closed my eyes and turned on the cp2 unit via the tx. The heli stayed the same. Pushed cyclic hard forward and released. Wow the heli made a big push forward then leveled out. Amazing! Corrected some right drift by moving the sensor on the tail boom. I went higher tonight than I ever have. I had the best most confident forward flight and turns.

So here's where I have a few questions.

I have a little drifting back. How do I get this better?

Sometimes it seemed it took the heli a little long to stop and level when I was moving forward and let go of the sticks and same side to side. Is there a way to change how fast the unit levels the heli when I release the stick?

Thanks to all that have posted here to help me.

[nightflyr]

So here's where I have a few questions.

I have a little drifting back. How do I get this better?

Use your flight angles to correct the back drifting by increasing - (neg) pitch a little at a time till the drift stops.

Sometimes it seemed it took the heli a little long to stop and level when I was moving forward and let go of the sticks and same side to side. Is there a way to change how fast the unit levels the heli when I release the stick?

You can try increasing your gains on the CPII a little at at time until you get the shakes then back off.
You can also try increase your travel limits on AIL and ELEV in your Tx

[sutty]

Excellent news that your flight went well. With some fine tuning now you will soon have it just how you want it. Night, I understand your point with regard to gain, but how would increasing travel adjust in the Tx make the CPII's corrections any faster or more agile etc. This makes no sense to me. I fully understand how increased travel adjust works with the MB, and how it improves performance, but this would be for when you are flying it. When the CPII is performing a correction to level, once the pilot has centered the stick, the CPII will not be seeing any Tx value, as the sticks are centered, so how could it possibly influence the speed at which it corrects to level?

Thanks in advance.

Cheers

Sutty.

[nightflyr]

CPII corrects attitude, but only by virtue of the FBL controller.
Slow response is a well know side effect when you use this type of setup.
Depending on what servos are used.. the timing of response may not even show itself if your servos are fast enough, but those using slower ones will tend to see it.

So to compensate you need to tweak up either the gains on the CPII and or the travel adjust on the Tx to get the recovery speed back close to where it was.

[sutty]

I'm sorry night but your explanation makes no sense to me. Sure, slow servos are likely to have a detrimental affect on the performance of any FBL system. Generally speaking the faster the better, and this would help the CPII and MB combination control the helicopter too, but this has nothing whatsoever to do with travel adjust from the Tx when the CPII is in charge, how can it have, when you are meant to centre the sticks for the heli to go back to level?

Take a 50% stick position on aileron, the CPII sees this and passes it to the MB, the MB then delivers an appropriate rate of roll, which is commensurate with a 50% stick position. If you have an increased travel adjust, then 50% stick position might easily be equal to 60% Tx output, so this would make the CPII pass a higher figure to the MB, and the MB would then roll the helicopter a little faster. Like I said before, this behaviour of increased travel adjust for the MB is well described and understood.

However, on releasing the stick, the Tx goes to 0, almost immediately, and no matter how much travel adjust is applied at the Tx, 0 is still 0, so the CPII does what it does, to level the heli, on its own, independent of the ATV value in the Tx. Having huge Tx ATVs will have no influence here. The CPII signal here will be whatever it is that is required to be sent to the MB to bring the heli back to level, and servo return speed, or servo speed to opposite aileron, to produce the levelling effect, cannot possibly be affected by the Tx having a different ATV value. The servo speed might have an effect on the levelling speed, but it would be small, and the ATV could not affect this in anyway.

There is a lot to discuss with regard to how the CPII works with the MB, particularly in regard to understanding how the MB behaves in respect of travel adjust, because in fact travel adjust can have a huge effect on the CPII/MB combo performance, but it is the travel adjust that you find within the CPII that is the key to this, and not that of the Tx.

Tx based travel adjust affects the rate of rotation delivered by the MB for a given stick position, when you are actually in control of it, and flying it, so if you know what you are doing this can turn a gentle or tame heli into an incredibly agile beast, or vice versa, but it is the CPII travel adjust that is the key to getting appropriate performance from the CPII/MB combo whilst the CPII is in charge, during recovery. It is however important not to just blindly increase these values either without understanding the implications.

For a start it is fairly well described that it is not the most sensible thing to do to use Tx based travel adjust or expo, when using the MB in one of its canned or stock flight modes, so if you want to utilise increased travel adjust to control the MB flight behaviour it is far more sensible to have it in Tx mode in flight parameter B. Having done this, and having understood how travel adjust will change the MB's behaviour you can then alter the behaviour of the CPII output, during recovery, by giving the CPII permission to overdrive the servos, or in this case the values that are sent to the MB. Of course because of the way the MB is set-up with the servos you can never actually physically over drive them, as the MB becomes the limiting factor, as it knows the endpoints set at MB set-up step L. During CPII set-up however there is a section that I think is called max servo travel limit, and you can set this to a value in excess of 100%. Changing this value to say 125% has a significan't impact on how fast the CPII/MB combo will recover in an ER stituation. Whether it even uses this under normal, easier type recoveries to level, I couldn't say. Perhaps not,as it wouldn't really need such large throws, but for full blooded recoveries, proper ER situations, it speeds it up no end. In fact it allows the CPII to utilise the full speed of the MB, which can be blindingly fast when using CPII endpoints of say 125%.

Just like when flying the MB with Tx based 125% endpoints, which makes for a very fast and agile heli, giving the CPII the ability to use 125% endpoints, to send to the MB during recovery, will make the CPII, who is in effect the pilot at this moment, also able to send 125% instructions, and have the MB make your heli respond in an incredibly fast manner, assuming that your heli is physically capable of course.

Personally, if it were me I would increase the gains as much as you can, as suggested by night, then you know you are getting the maximum from the CPII it terms of corrections, and then, if it is still too slow, and if you are using Tx mode to control the MB behaviour, you could try to increase the recovery rate by increasing the travel adjust in the CPII, under the Max servo travel throw section. This way you can use the Tx based travel adjust to set the MB to be as tame or as agile as you like it to be for flying, whilst allowing the CPII to always have the opportunity of being super agile with the MB because it has higher endpoints available to it whilst it is in control.

This is how I understand what is happening, and it is precisely what I have observed in practice with my installation on the 600.


Cheers

Sutty

[nightflyr]

Sorry if it doesn't make sense. but it is what it is...
The combination of the CPII and the FBL tend to exercise a slower reaction.
I have to assume for sake of time, that anyone using this setup understands that Tx flight control behavior is first on the list of "To Do's"
If a question is presented as it was, with no further information.
I have to take it that the pilot has a good understanding of the FBL controller and what is required to have it operate in conjunction with CPII.
What ever tweaks are required to get the platform to function "correctly" is a pilots own feel.

I try to keep explanations as simple as possible...
I posted the best known solution I know of...
If someone has a better way ... I'm all ears.

[sutty]

Night, I like your to the point answers, and it is a skill that I lack, as was clearly evidenced by my last post. Normally a pointer is all that most people will need, so a full explanation is perhaps, under most circumstances, simply a waste of time, so your skill here is to be applauded. If however the advice is likely to lead to confusion, or just plain wrong, then I think a clearer explanation can be required.

The reason I said "doesn't make sense" is because I was trying to be polite and avoid having to say that in my opinion you are incorrect and in this case it most certainly is not just a case of 'it is what it is'. My explanation was long, but I hoped clear enough, as I believed in this case it warranted it, since even if you find it simple, for most it is not.

Since we disagree on the impact of Tx based travel adjust and how this might affect recovery rates for this CPII/MB combo, and you are only prepared to offer the further explanation that 'it is what it is', perhaps I could invite others to consider the matter and offer an explanation as to how having an increased value in your Tx ATV can speed up the CPII's recoveries.


Cheers

Sutty

[nightflyr]

I might be incorrect... I'm only human, but that does not negate the fact that it does work and has been for a few years.
I have already traveled down this road when I first started experimenting with CPII and FBL
platforms.
I found this issue when I first setup CPII with a VBar FBL controller a long time ago and worked out a solution for the sluggish response for the conjunction platform.

The same held true for most all FBL controllers I tested out.

If someone believes my suggested solution does not solve the issue, all are free to seek out another.

I'm not trying to be rude to anyone, I just avoid in-depth lengthy technical explanations.
If you visit the "lab" Most everything I do, I do because I see it in my mind. I never limit my thoughts or ideas to what is believed to be limitations of what something can or will do.
If, in my mind, I decide this should work.. I'll build it to show it can.
I gave up trying to explain the whys and hows.

Most people believe the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line.. in which case long drawn out explanations are required.

My way of thinking is.... the shortest distance between 2 points is a Möbius strip ....
( August Ferdinand Möbius ) Metaphysics

The issue.. The solution.

I leave the explanations to others.

BTW I think you missed something....
I never mentioned that increasing the ATV's has any effect on the CPII... this is to up the BeastX response to input.

[sutty]

Originally Posted by nightflyr

BTW I think you missed something....
I never mentioned that increasing the ATV's has any effect on the CPII... this is to up the BeastX response to input.

Originally Posted by nightflyr

So to compensate you need to tweak up either the gains on the CPII and or the travel adjust on the Tx to get the recovery speed back close to where it was.

Is this not stating that increasing Tx based ATVs increases CPII recoveries. If not then it makes even less sense, because at the moment of a recovery the MB can know nothing of what the Tx ATVs are set to. It doesn't remember where it saw them at last and behave more aggressively accordingly. The guy in question asked how he could speed up the recovery once he let go of the stick and you included that he could increase Tx based ATVs, as one of two options, or both. If this is not what you meant then you were not clear. If this is what you meant then I believe the Tx based ATV info is inaccurate. When you let go of the stick, the Tx value is 0, so the ATV from the Tx can not possibly be at play here. This to me seems very obvious, but it also doesn't mean that I am right either.

I'm not here for an argument, so I respectgfully bow out of this discussion now, and leave it to people who read this information to decide for themselves. I certainly do not want to detract from what is a very useful thread that you started with regard to using the CPII in conjunction with the MB.

Cheers

Sutty

[nightflyr]

I do not think your looking to argue..

I might suggest you give it a try and see what happens..
Set your ATV's to + / - 100, run through the quick setup adjust the gains accordingly and fly..
Do the stick release to level recovery and try the bail out function and note the helicopters reaction.

Then go back and increase the ATV's run through quick setup again. Go in and adjust the gains again.
Repeat the same flight test.

[jperkosk]

That should work just fine , glad you two have finally come to the agreement here.

Hopefully after the job I'm on is done I'll get a couple of weeks at home to do just this setup on TR700N, it should be interesting

Aaah, Rich, Andy's very much MB expert imho (he talks to the code developers at MB on sleepless nights) and you're the walking CP2 bible, so between the two of you I feel safe already

[nightflyr]

Hey Jerry,
This wasn't a argument or pissing contest so fear not.
This solution helps with all the FBL controllers I've tried... I said "helps" the fact that your processing and reprocessing signals through different hardware platforms has its disadvantages.
Keep in mind that CPII was never designed at the on set to send modified signals to a FBL controller, add to the fact your installing another controller into the loop, I was a bit surprised at how well it worked.

Though I would venture an educated guess here that a new combined platform with all these features and more may be closer to being a reality than one might believe.

[sutty]

Originally Posted by nightflyr

Then go back and increase the ATV's run through quick setup again. Go in and adjust the gains again.
Repeat the same flight test.

I know I said I would leave this topic, but after the recent post I just had to re-visit it. Of course now we are talking. This is completely different advice than you offered before, and is why, on occasion, it is nice to explain in more detail. I do not need to go and test fly it night, I can easily do this in my head. Clearly if you run through the set-up again, which you didn't previously mention, or even allude to, you will show it full throw again during set-up and as a result you will have taught the CPII a new set of extents to which it believes it can go to. These full throws can now be delivered to the MB, during recovery, and of course this will result in a faster recovery. Clearly if you do not repeat the CPII set-up, then this increased ATV will have no effect on the recovery rates.

The problem with this method is that you now have your Tx set-up to control the MB as a very fast and agile heli, which may not suit your flying style. To combat this, after re-doing the CPII set-up, with larger ATVs, you would have to reset them back in your Tx to your preferred values for flying. This way the MB flies how you want it, and is still using full size, full speed commands, to the MB, when the CPII is in charge.

Perhaps better, in my opinion, to have the MB and Tx set to how you want it, for flying, and increase the CPII extents in the section which allows the CPII to overdirve the servos (MB inputs in this case) by putting in a value of say 125% here. That way only the CPII gets to use and feel the effects of a 125% tuned MB, because for many human pilots this is often way too fast, especially for those who are learning, and who are likely to be wanting the benefit of the CPII recoveries anyway. To be fair, I'm not sure if this extra overdrive value would even be invoked for tame recoveries to level, so it may be that your method would work best here, but one would have to be very sure that having gone through the CPII set-up you went back to your Tx and re-visted the ATVs to get it flying how you wanted it to do.

Mine is already set like this, I fly at 110% on my Tx ATVs, which makes the MB fairly aggressive and I have given the CPII the option of 125% for when it needs it, in the set-up, so that the recoveries will be fast. With it set like this the recoveries, full ER recoveries, are blindingly fast. Hard to believe in fact. To me they look just like those recoveries that we have seen recently in the new HD module video. I hope that means I will have that same performance when I get mine. Mind you, probably doesn't matter, as long as it can do it within the 50 feet limit then all will be well anyway.


Cheers

Sutty

[nightflyr]

This is completely different advice than you offered before, and is why, on occasion, it is nice to explain in more detail. I do not need to go and test fly it night, I can easily do this in my head. Clearly if you run through the set-up again, which you didn't previously mention, or even allude to, you will show it full throw again during set-up and as a result you will have taught the CPII a new set of extents to which it believes it can go to. These full throws can now be delivered to the MB, during recovery, and of course this will result in a faster recovery. Clearly if you do not repeat the CPII set-up, then this increased ATV will have no effect on the recovery rates.

The advise did not change...
As I said there are basic "To Do's"required when you change any settings on either or both the CPII and/or Microbeast.
If it is needed to say you need to go through setups on both units again, I would hope that whom ever is attempting these changes has that understanding already.

The problem with this method is that you now have your Tx set-up to control the MB as a very fast and agile heli, which may not suit your flying style. To combat this, after re-doing the CPII set-up, with larger ATVs, you would have to reset them back in your Tx to your preferred values for flying. This way the MB flies how you want it, and is still using full size, full speed commands, to the MB, when the CPII is in charge.

This is not a problem..
Microbeast should be setup for Tx flight performance adjustment instead of the programmed flight modes of the microbeast..
The simple way to tone down the agility is to use D/R and Expo to tweak the platform for a pilots taste.

[sutty]

Honestly, you are serious aren't you? You think that when a newb to this system asks you for advice you would expect him to know exactly when and where a repeat of the set-up would be required, without you actually mentioning it? Unbelievable. Incidentally, the advice about having to do this for the MB is not correct. If you were in Tx mode to begin with, something else that you said that all should have known without asking, then you can adjust the ATVs, DRs, Expo, curves, etc to your hearts content without repeating any portion of the MB set-up, yet here you advise to also do this again for some reason.

Your suggestion to make use of DR's to dumb down the increased ATV's back to normal is unwise, and would cause confusion at best or something worse as a result of the confusion. Far better to use one or the other for clarity, and if choosing your method of set-up for the CPII, and why not, it would certainly work, one would be well advised, after doing the CPII set-up with the increased ATVs, to simply return to the chosen ATV values that you had prior to the CPII set-up so that your MB would fly as it did before.

It is my impression that you thought about what I said, and went, 'damn, he's right, it couldn't possibly work, what I meant to say was if you re-do the set-up afterwards it would work. I'll sneak that one in now, maybe it will go under the radar.' On being caught trying to sneak this change through as if it were nothing, you then blame it on others, me specifically, as lacking adequate comprehension of a basic understanding of these systems by claiming, 'of course anyone should know exactly when and where a re-setup would be required, crazy not to'. Yet you yourself give inaccurate advice about when it would be required on a MB for example, go figure.

I could be totally wrong here, but it is certainly what it felt like to me, and I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't the same feeling for others who might be reading this, but I leave it for them to judge. Either way, it's all good, whatever is, or was, in your mind, I really am leaving this discussion now for good, as it is pointless, since it is perfectly clear that both methods can be made to work, if only you know what you are doing to begin with.

Obviously I shan't leave the thread, as it has some valuable content, and if I can contribute further then I would be more than happy to do so. What I mean is regardless of what other statements you might come out with concerning this particular question, justifying your position, or what you expect people to know or not know in advance of asking a question, then I for one shall not be replying.


Cheers

Sutty

[nightflyr]

What I said holds true...
I expect anyone that attempts these flight platform combinations to have fully read and have at least some working knowledge as how these platforms operate.

Feel free to suggest any means to the end as you feel...

What you "think" or your "impressions" of my responses is your privilege, and not any care to me.
I don't "sneek " anything by anyone and have no need to.
If you believe you need to be the ultimate answer man concerning these setups.... god bless.
I've been at this for the last 2 1/2 years, I have yet to give advise that would prove faulty concerning these setups or put anyone or there equipment in any danger..

If you do not care for my suggestions feel free to use your own...
But make no mistake... what I suggested works perfectly and has from day one.

Much less the fact I use them on quite a few of my larger builds without any issues.

As to my mentioning redoing setup...
Simple reasoning.. as with any other electronic change.. I always redo my setups when I do changes to the platform, hence there is never a question about a possible fault .

You don't care to do that operation.... again that is your choice....
But not something I would suggest nor put faith in when it concerns any bird in my fleet.

[n6nev]

This was a very interesting discussion, and I learned a lot. as usual, the more I learn, the more I find, their is to learn. Nite stated have the auto trim should be off with FBL.. why is that?

[nightflyr]

You do not want to initialize your FBL controller if the CPII is inputting any signal..
On a flybar helicopter it is doable, but not what I would suggest with a FBL.

[craig1980]

I just tried to read the past two pages Night and Sutty you do have two different approaches but all I can say is thanks to you both and you both have really helped me.

I am not making any changes except a little on the flight angles. My heli is flying sweet and I am not messing with what is working.

UPDATE:
I have been hovering for way to long and just did not have the confidence I needed to get out and fly. I have mastered building and know a ton about these machines but spent most of my time reading and building.

Well today that changed. Second session with the cp2. I started as usual and then something happened. I was way up in the air flying nice banked figure 8s bringing the heli completely nose in on the turns just like on the sim. I was not even thinking anymore and just flying. I was the only person at the field so I figured no one would believe this. I brought the heli down and all of a sudden I heard a car honk. I look behind me and my grandfather was sitting in his car and I had been having so much fun I did not see him pull in. He has been coming to watch and gotten into airplanes and small helis I think so we can spend time together. I walked to his car and he had a smile on his face like I had never seen before. I think he knows how hard I worked this winter on the sim and he was so excited. It was a great moment I will never forget.

The cp2 system just plain works guys. I even found myself turning the system on and off during the next few flights.