Lack of control

[Mainboom]

So it's only been 3 weeks.I thought I had hovering down pretty well. I use phoenix simulator daily btw. 30 min roughly each day. Anyhow it seems like lately I'm just adjusting to much and seem to be regressing from what I had accomplished so far.

I'm using a dx6i I have DR at 100 and expos at 25 on elevator and aileron 20 on rudder. Should I make these higher? The exposition lvls that is. Will this help me stay more stable let's say ? I have tail in down pretty well and I practice hovering everynight. And then piros. But I'm just all over the place I don't get it .

[jarhart]

Learning to fly RC helicopters is hard. Really hard. There is no reason to be discouraged after only 3 weeks.

That feeling of seeming regression is normal. It's part of the learning process. As much as it feels like it, you're not actually regressing. You'll go through "ups" and "downs" and this is just one of the "downs." When you get to the "up" on the other side of it you'll feel better than ever about your progress. Until the next "down." Eventually you'll get used to it and "downs" won't get you down anymore.

As far as rates and expo, set them to whatever is comfortable, but err on the side of lower the rates and more expo. You'l actually learn faster the more you have to move the sticks. Also, more stick tension helps for the same reason--more muscle use builds muscle memory faster.

BTW, I've been at it for 2 1/2 years now, averaging close to an hour a day in the sim. I'm now working on stuff like rolling circles and pirouetting funnels. And hovering. I'm still working on hovering. It's hard.

[Mainboom]

ok... it just seems to me like I'm making to many inputs for some reason. and all the sudden I'm all over the place and lets just say lose control. I barely have to bump my sticks it seems. I could very well be thinking it should be moving along faster then I am in my opinion.

is it a bad idea to hover inverted till I get normal hover down ? like I said I hover normal and all directions then do piros then I do some inverted then I just fly around alittle. like do circles. I'm kinda throwing the chadrg lesson 1 and 2 together daily. maybe I'm forcing it

[kfjensen]

There is a lot to learn here. DR and Expo in the transmitter can work, but more can be done within the program itself. What heli's are you using in Phoenix? Maybe try a few of the different 700 models. If they are still moving too fast you can either edit them in simple mode(25% maybe) or detailed mode. Most of the tail piro rates are very high. Suggest you lower this to start with, maybe 400° per second under the advance-tail rotor-gyro menu.

[Mainboom]

I'm using the align 700 the goblind 630 I think and the thunder tiger 700. I'm trying to keep the same size heli so I can see it better. I'll take a look at the piro rate. I just set my expo higher it seem less twitchy. That what I'm looking to stop the most it being so twitchy. Couldn't think of the word before

[kfjensen]

The Thunder Tiger Raptor 90 G4 or Synergy N9 might be a bit slower on the stick by default. You can also reduce "Main Rotor - Flybar - Flybarless Agility" by 10 to 20%.

For the Camera, turn off autozoom and use Normal view, this might seem to make the heli harder to see, but your probably just flying too far away from yourself if you cant see it.. This way you can see the heli flying away from you.

[Raptorapture]

3 weeks is a very short amount of time when it comes to learning how to fly rc helis. I was still hovering tail in at that point in time. I suggest getting all four hovering orientations down as well as forward figure eights before going inverted.

There are four basic orientations when it comes to flight. Upright forward, Upright backward, Inverted forward, Inverted backward. I would suggest getting each one reasonably sorted before moving on to the next. Once learning another, it's really important to continue intermixing practice of the already learnt ones. This and transitions are probably the most difficult aspect of learning all four orientations of flight.

Expo is your friend. It took me over a decade to fully understand the value of expo. Rates will allow you to control the max rotation rate at full throw of the Tx stick. Expo will control that twitchiness. I'm currently running 40 on cyclic and 60 on tail. Previously I was running 30 on cyclic and 20 on tail. More is generally better as in easier but at some point it just moves the twitchiness from centre to further out rather than reducing it. I'm using 60 on tail to force myself to be more aware of tail input while learning piro moves. I'll probably end up on 40 on tail as well.

If you haven't already have a look at ArchmageAu's All 8's in 6 months. The starting point there is rather than learning just four hovering orientations learning all orientations via slow pirouette.

[Kap'n Krunch]

I run about 25 expo on the sim across the broad but ironically I put about 20 negative expo in the radio for alieron and elevator and leave rudder expo as is

Then in the radio you can turn the dual rates down to about 95 aileron and maybe 88 give or take a few on the elevator also turn down dual rate on the tail this is just off hand I may have messed with some other sim parameters as well also you can turn the sim speed down to about 97 percent

I've struggled with the feel of Phoenix for some time and so far this is the best I've come up with for me

[bazsound]

some of the helis need adjustments right of the bat.

The first adjustment on any heli you should do is the tail gyro piroette rate, its stupid on most of the helis sometimes even way up at 720 degrees per second. Slow that right down to 300 to 350. slow enough to do controlled slow circles but still fast enough to quickly whip the tail around when needed and do farefly fast piroflips.


some of the helis already have expo set, i remove this because you end up adding expo ontop of expo, some of the models ive found to have 25% expo on the cyclics aswell as rudder. Also the dual rates can be way too slow upping the expo to 50% aswell as reducing the rates.

Be carefull of too much expo, while it makes things not so sensitive around mid stick if you go to far you can end up being behind the heli because your using so much stick that you cant get the control in fast enough.

Over correction is a commen difficulty, after a year of flying (i flew previously for a year but just messing around) i still suffer from overcorrection from time to time and get in a loop causing what looks like a mess in the air. fJust keep at it and dont force it. sometimes its best to take a break and come back later.

When hovering its ok to drift around a bit, its better to drift around in a small area than to start chasing the heli around. over time you will get better at keeping the heli on the spot even still outside with the wind your not going to be planted in the air dead still. especially if your flying a smaller heli. Unless its something like a 700 or a heavy scale 450 it wont have the weight to keep it planted.

[Mainboom]

all the models I have been using had a piro rate of 420. I knocked them all down to 350. raised my collective expos to 35 still 20 on the rudder. seems to be a lot better so far not as twitchy.
thanks for the advice guys

[Kap'n Krunch]

Maybe it's just in my head but having the 25 expo as a preset in the sim and then using the radio to go negative expo seems to help with the over sensitive center stick twitch on Phoenix

[Mainboom]

I have all the expos in the sim set to 0. per archmageAU if you do this it will only use your tx settings. for expos etc. this from what I gather makes it closer to what it would be in real life. unless I completely misunderstood the post

[Kap'n Krunch]

Doesn't hurt to try what I described

[Wargamer]

Originally Posted by Mainboom

So it's only been 3 weeks.I thought I had hovering down pretty well. I use phoenix simulator daily btw. 30 min roughly each day. Anyhow it seems like lately I'm just adjusting to much and seem to be regressing from what I had accomplished so far.

Three weeks is really nothing when it comes to helis, and it's very much 2 steps forward and 1 step back; at least it often feels that way. I personally find that I need to take a day or two off regularly. I sim an average of 4-5 days a week, and normally not more than 20-30 minutes. You really can't push it. I think everyone has their own pace, and some people will pick it up a little faster or slower, but you are basically building brain connections here, and pushing it faster than your brain is willing to go just causes frustration.

That said, it is important to have a structured training routine. As others have suggested, Archmage's tutorials are excellent.

[Mainboom]

Mon thru Fri I do 30 min every night. 15 min intervals. Then if I get border I'll do some hovering or circles what ever. Not being use to a air TX is giving me some problems lately
But got it sorted
Just alot of new info to process between my 2 heli and new TX and the sim. Almost feel bad I don't fly my heli s much lol

[Wargamer]

Originally Posted by Mainboom

Almost feel bad I don't fly my heli s much lol

More sim time = faster progress with fewer crashes, so you can think of sim time as giving your helis some well-deserved love.

[Mainboom]

Originally Posted by Wargamer

More sim time = faster progress with fewer crashes, so you can think of sim time as giving your helis some well-deserved love.

Good point

[ArchmageAU]

Originally Posted by Mainboom

So it's only been 3 weeks.I thought I had hovering down pretty well. I use phoenix simulator daily btw. 30 min roughly each day. Anyhow it seems like lately I'm just adjusting to much and seem to be regressing from what I had accomplished so far.

I'm using a dx6i I have DR at 100 and expos at 25 on elevator and aileron 20 on rudder. Should I make these higher? The exposition lvls that is. Will this help me stay more stable let's say ? I have tail in down pretty well and I practice hovering everynight. And then piros. But I'm just all over the place I don't get it .

First things first. Expo is all about FEEL. Some like small expo, some like large expo, some even like negative expo. Expo should be adjusted to YOUR feel. (Expo is not a measure of proficiency).

Tail in is the easiest orientation. The cyclic feels natural. (left is left, right is right, forward and backward make sense).

Move more than 45 degrees off tail-in and things usually start to go haywire. Most people when learning find 45 degrees off nose-in the hardest orientation. It take a lot of practice.

Keep tail-in as your "safe" zone. Experiment trying to get a stable hover in other orientations. Getting further and further from tail-in, but reverting back to tail-in should you feel out of control.

To successfully do piros properly you must be able to correct in ALL orientations. This takes LOTS of practice.

Work on:
- NEVER flying too close or behind you.
- Flying and landing wherever you like tail in.
- Flying well above eye level (height is you friend, give you time to save).
- Flying cross field.
- Lazy 8's.
- Flying circles.

You may even like to have a look at "From tail-in to all 8s and funnels in 6 months".

Happy flying.

[Mainboom]

I look over the tail in to all 8s and funnels alot. I actually use my second monitor and mimic what your doing in the video the best I can. While flying my sim. I have changed my expo to 38 on aile and elevator. It helped alot. I'm not all over the place like I was. Trying to get lazy 8's down now. Thanks for the advice and that thread

[Steve Graham]

Hey Arch, Long time no see

Mainboom,

In most instances if a heli is moving around in a way you don't want it's a matter of too much input (degree) or incorrect/out of sync input (timing)

In manipulating the flight controls we generally have two goals that may actually work against each other.

The first is accuracy. Our inputs must be accurately given to keep the disc and tail exactly where we want them.

The second, smoothness, refers to your ability to give ONLY the input necessary to keep the attitude you want and do so in a way that the aircraft experiences ONLY the accelerations necessary for maneuvering.

Imagine yourself a passenger. Do you experience any G loadings that are not strictly required to keep the aircraft on the desired flight path. Where I work we had a guy who had been a member of the Air Force Thunderbirds. I've never seen someone who could so accurately maintain a flight path within a foot of where he wanted the machine. There was a problem though. He was rough with the controls which was noticed by all the people onboard. IOW's he sacrificed smoothness for accuracy.

As you work to develop your skill set do so with these two competing goals in mind. Most flying seeks to achieve maximum accuracy without sacrificing smoothness. There will be times you don't really care about smoothness such as in the style of flying we call crack which involves very rapid stick movements around the desired deflection point. See Jamie Robertson. Smooth 3d flying on the other hand demands a very fluid stick input that has the model flowing smoothly from one orientation to the next. Hovering maneuvers require a high degree of both accuracy AND smoothness.

Recognize these skills take years to develop. Name one of the top pilots in the world. None of them mastered this in 3 weeks so enjoy the process. Kyle Dahl has talked about the strict discipline his dad enforced on his training regime early on. If your goal oriented it can help to record your sim flying or keep a journal of sorts. This will allow you to look back and see how far you've come and where you still need work.

Specifically in the case of pirouetting hovers visualization can help. Realize that a stable hover requires the heli to lean very slightly to the right. Watch carefully for the heli to maintain this "right skid low" attitude as you piro. By seeing this attitude in your mind's eye before it gets to a new heading you will develop the ability to more quickly see and adjust attitude before any drift actually occurs.