Align Trex 450 Pro

[mjlFlys]

I haven't done forward flight with a collective pitch heli yet. I've been having the problem with the wind blowing the heli around so even trying to hover was difficult. I have done forward flight with my msr but that's a fixed pitch heli so it's much easier. The thing about the scorpion motor is that it may be too expensive for me. I was looking at a turnigy 3700 kv motor that is about $25 that I'll probably end up buying. I won't have to update the esc and will get the increased head speed. Honestly I haven't even hovered in all 4 positions yet so I'm working on some of this stuff now. Head speed will make a huge difference going forward though. Wind seems to be my problem at this point

[bad007]

What motor do you have? A bigger pinion will do the trick no problem. I have the V1 450M and head speed is no problem.

[bazsound]

Its a flybar heli aswell so is going to need more stick input to keep it stable compared to a FBL machine..

If you up the headspeed you need to be aware its also going to make the heli more responsive both on collective and cyclic so if you want it to have the same sensitivity youd have to make adjustments.

[bazsound]

just remembered something.

What blades are you running? are they FB blades. if so try FBL blades they supposedly increase stability on an FB machine

[mjlFlys]

I bought the heli used from here. It's an Align Trex 450 Pro V1 with the flybar. It has a (I'm guessing) stock motor which is a 3500 kv motor. I counted the pinion which is a 14t pinion. My throttle curve is 0, 50, 66, 80, 100 (something like that) my pitch curve is (50, 68, 75, 80, 100) (something like that) it still doesn't seem stable and fear taking it too high because I feel as though if I have to over correct it I may end up crashing it

[mjlFlys]

I think I have the cheap blades on it

[bad007]

Originally Posted by mjlicklid

I bought the heli used from here. It's an Align Trex 450 Pro V1 with the flybar. It has a (I'm guessing) stock motor which is a 3500 kv motor. I counted the pinion which is a 14t pinion. My throttle curve is 0, 50, 66, 80, 100 (something like that) my pitch curve is (50, 68, 75, 80, 100) (something like that) it still doesn't seem stable and fear taking it too high because I feel as though if I have to over correct it I may end up crashing it

Not stable? Make sure everything is 0 at mid stick mains and paddles
You don't need a motor that's a 450M, it's right on the can. You need your pitch and throttle curves fixed. Those are no good. Also old batteries decrease performance and you need a charger that can test internal resistance. High discharge packs with low IR.
To get the head speed up you need to set the pitch at 0 mid stick at flight modes and redo throttle curves. Here's example
Pitch curve for normal, 35 ** 50 75 100 with 50/0deg. being mid stick.
Get used to 0 at mid stick so if and when you transition to inverted you don't have to start all over relearning to fly above mid point.
IU1/2 pitch curves linear 0 25 50 75 100
Throttle curves
Normal 0 75 75 75 and only use it to land !!!
IU throttle curves shallow v curves and use then even if your not doing 3D
IU1, 84 ** 80 ** 84
IU2, 88 ** 85 ** 88
When spooling up hit TH, move collective to mid stick then IU1 and let off TH and spool up. Now your running 80 and 85% min in fight.
When landing switch to normal and land, hit TH and let the stick at mid point while if spins down. These are this you need to get used to doing.

[bazsound]

Originally Posted by bad007

Not stable? Make sure everything is 0 at mid stick mains and paddles
You don't need a motor that's a 450M, it's right on the can. You need your pitch and throttle curves fixed. Those are no good. Also old batteries decrease performance and you need a charger that can test internal resistance. High discharge packs with low IR.
To get the head speed up you need to set the pitch at 0 mid stick at flight modes and redo throttle curves. Here's example
Pitch curve for normal, 35 ** 50 75 100 with 50/0deg. being mid stick.
Get used to 0 at mid stick so if and when you transition to inverted you don't have to start all over relearning to fly about mid point.
IU1/2 pitch curves linear 0 25 50 75 100
Throttle curves
Normal 0 75 75 75 and only use it to land !!!
IU throttle curves shallow v curves and use then even if your not doing 3D
IU1, 84 ** 80 ** 84
IU2, 88 ** 85 ** 88
When spooling up hit TH, move collective to mid stick then IU1 and let off TH and spool up. Now your running 80 and 85% min in fight.
When landing switch to normal and land, hit TH and let the stick at mid point while if spins down. These are this you need to get used to doing.

yep, flying with a consistant headspeed will help things alot in terms of stability as lift is only being effected by blade pitch and not rpms going up and down ontop of that.

Im not even using throttle curves anymore just flat lines (although i am using esc governer).

with 3500kv motor and 14T you should get plenty of headspeed.

[bazsound]

Originally Posted by mjlicklid

I bought the heli used from here. It's an Align Trex 450 Pro V1 with the flybar. It has a (I'm guessing) stock motor which is a 3500 kv motor. I counted the pinion which is a 14t pinion. My throttle curve is 0, 50, 66, 80, 100 (something like that) my pitch curve is (50, 68, 75, 80, 100) (something like that) it still doesn't seem stable and fear taking it too high because I feel as though if I have to over correct it I may end up crashing it

do you have training gear??? dont take it up to high.

Part 1 - Beginner Helicopter Video using Radd's School of Rotary Flight method (7 min 44 sec)

Rc-heli flight lesson 1...learning the basics (freddycanflyrc.com) (13 min 35 sec)

[mjlFlys]

I do have the training gear on it. I'd like to take the trading gear off. I mean what's the worst thing that can happen? I crash it. It might be worth taking that chance because if the trading gear is effecting the heli I'll never get anywhere learning how to fly.. I did buy a new motor I got the turnigy 3700kv motor from eBay hopefully it'll be good. I also ordered a 15t and a 16t pinion from eBay

[bazsound]

the training gear there is to help not crash your heli, it will add a bit ofl weight but extra weight usually helps with wind handling.

your difficulties are most likely due to inexperience. its not easy to maintain a solid hover expecially on smaller models. if your making heavy cyclic corrections your going to losoe altitude. Colective free hovering requires small corrections.

Now when it comes to wind if its gusting theres not much youc an do about it but learn to cmpensate for it. I could hardly fly my 250 in wind until i just kept doing it. now i can fly in quite horrendous wind for a 250 size. then i got a 450 and couldnt fly it in wind i woudl fly the 250, but now i can fly that in pretty bad wind. its not pretty but it doesnt crash.

i think your gearing might be too high for a 3700kv motor. im running a 3600kv with 14t pinion and without a governer could run upt o 3800RPM which is insane high for a 450.

im running about 3000RPM which is plenty for sport flight and mild 3d

3700kv with a 15T pinion ungoverned at full battery could hit 4000RPM a 16T 4400rpm.

im not sure a 450 can handle that kind of headspeed nor could you control it..

[bad007]

Originally Posted by mjlicklid

I do have the training gear on it. I'd like to take the trading gear off. I mean what's the worst thing that can happen? I crash it. It might be worth taking that chance because if the trading gear is effecting the heli I'll never get anywhere learning how to fly.. I did buy a new motor I got the turnigy 3700kv motor from eBay hopefully it'll be good. I also ordered a 15t and a 16t pinion from eBay

The only thing you need is to fix your throttle and pitch curves, there all wrong.
bazsound is right. Your to inexperienced for that kv/pinion combo.
I'd take the training gear off first, I couldn't ever learn with them on, to wishy washy
The 450m will do everything you'll ever want it to do with a 14t
Just redo your curves and recheck your setup, 0 mid stick blades and paddles and max pitch the same with the grip links over all 3 servo horns

[ERRATIC]

Remove the ping pong training gear and install a set of Trex 500 skids.

Larger then the 450 gear, adds stability to landings without those sticks from the training gear rattling like mad.

I have been flying 450's for years and still install a set of 500 skids for maiden flights on all my builds.


Steve

[mjlFlys]

So these are the things I've been doing these last couple of weeks and where I am at with this along with questions:

1. Took the training gear off. Best thing I've done. Didn't realize I didn't need it. The heli isn't going to fall over. On take off it tips a little but as long as I give it right alerion it is fine on take off. This will help tremdously in the long run to get flying and keep moving foward.

2. Bought a new motor. Bought a Turnigy 3700 kv motor. Installed it and it is perfect as far as I think at this point. Anyone looking to install a motor put a piece of paper between the motor and the main gear and mesh them up wth the paper there. Also put plenty of grease on the main gear and motor pinion.

3. Bought a 15t and 16t motor pinion. Have currently the 15t pinion on the heli with the new motor. Thinking of installing the 16t pinion but not 100% sure if necessary.

4. Bought new skids. I got the really nice align skids that have the separate poles and skids. The ones that need to be built and not just one piece. I like them better than the one piece skids but that is just my preferenece.

5. Unfortuately I had to but a new motor mount. I got the KDE Direct universal motor mount. My new motor would not fit with the existing motor mount and luckily I found this one online and saved my life.

6. It's not necessarily the "wind". I belive it is my cyclic movements. It seems when I make a cyclic movement the heli bounces up and down. I go from 2 feet off the ground to inches off the ground when making cyclic movements or adjusting the tail. This might be more due to inexperience rather than the "wind"

7. Added 50% expo on the aleron and elivator. This seems to keep my stick movement more stable for the heli. Don't know why so much but seems to help right now. I'd like it to be 35% like others but don't know if that would make things worse or better.

8. My throttle curve is linear right now. My pitch curve starts at 50% to 100%. Just what I am comforatble with right now and inexperince is going to make it this way until I have more experince. One of the things I used to do was have negative pitch a 0 throttle which would slam the heli to the ground when trying to land. 0 pitch at 0 throttle keeps the heli from slamming to the ground when coming down or landing.

9. Haven't checked my batteries but may think I do need new batteries. This may be something I do when I get paid this week.

10. Got really nice main blades. Got the align carbon fiber blades from ebay. The ones that say align and have the black and white grathics.

Any kind of opinions would be good. Any kind of help would be appreciated. Any kind of comments would be good. Going forward

[bazsound]

Do not use the paper trick to set gear mesh. Its not reliable. Somstimss giving loose andsometimss tight mesh.

Fimd the high spot mark it and pull back a fracfion then checj all the way round. U want to br able to giggle the main gear back and forward a fracrion while holding the motor.

Too loose you sill strip fhe gear under heavy load. Too tight yoh just sraw lots of current reduckn flighf times and being hard on battrrys.

If its too titchh drop the avility rathet than using lot of expo

Sent from my 5051X using Tapatalk

[mjlFlys]

Adjusting travel makes it less twitchy?

[bazsound]

Originally Posted by mjlicklid

Adjusting travel makes it less twitchy?

sorry forgot you are flybar and not flybarless, agility is in flyberless electronic gyros.

im not that familiar with gyros but i think paddles can effect how twitchy it is, i think the swash mix may also have an effect on the agility of the heli but for now just use the expo.

I found that expo on helped for a short while, i ran high expo and then ended up turning it down a few flights later as it was making me fly behind the heli one you start flying around faster

[mjlFlys]

So a couple of the last flights I've had ended up with the heli tipped over on the ground with the blades scraping against the pavement. Do I need to replace the feathering shaft for this? It's been just as the blades slowed down they were against the pavement thwack thwack against the pavement

Also do people usually fly with the canopy? I haven't been flying with the canopy but now think it'll help with orientation

Also what is the trick to hover higher off the ground? I can't seem to get higher than 3 or 4 ft off the ground when I get 15 ft or so off the ground it takes more effort to keep the heli stable and seems to be more harder to keep the heli in a place where I felt safe flying it

[bazsound]

Originally Posted by mjlicklid

So a couple of the last flights I've had ended up with the heli tipped over on the ground with the blades scraping against the pavement. Do I need to replace the feathering shaft for this? It's been just as the blades slowed down they were against the pavement thwack thwack against the pavement

Also do people usually fly with the canopy? I haven't been flying with the canopy but now think it'll help with orientation

Also what is the trick to hover higher off the ground? I can't seem to get higher than 3 or 4 ft off the ground when I get 15 ft or so off the ground it takes more effort to keep the heli stable and seems to be more harder to keep the heli in a place where I felt safe flying it

take the blades off and put a hex driver in 1 of the bolts in the blade grips and turn the bolt, if the blade grip wobbles the feathering shaft is bent. on 250's is pretty much guarenteed that the feathering shaft will bent in even a milt tipover.

the 450 might get away with it but its possibly bent. my suggestion is not to fly over concrete. fly over grass, it really helps minimise crash damage.

You will also want to check your servos.

as for hovering higher up, i think your problem is more of judging what corrections to make, your getting behind the heli and by the time you have noticed its moved its starting to move fast and you correct too much and send it the other way.

also when low the the ground you have that safety net if you get uncomfortable to just set it down, when your up high it can esculate to all over the place as you add bad correction after bad correction.

It just takes practice, small nudges at a time, when you m ake a nudge make a nudge in the opposite direction before doing the next correction, seems like twice the work but if you make too much the oppisite nudge will correct it. plus if the heli is drifting forward you need enough back to stop the moment but once the momentum has stopped you will now gain momenum backwards because the amount of back yoiu needed puts the disc angled back. If you just gave enough to level the disc the momentum would still slowly continue instead of stopping quickly.

now this is where dumbing the sticks down gets counter intuitive because the more stick travel you need to counter momentum the longer it takes to give that correction, you need to be ahead of the heli otherwise you end up chasing it around.

i wont even use dual rates anymore for hovering, if i desensitise it im putting too much effort in on the sticks just to hover, just giving a mm of nudge is all thats needed for me.

ofcoarse as a beginner some dumbing down will help just dont go too far.

So when you are hovering, pay attention to the disc angle. when you start drifting give an opposite correction to level the disc. If your still drifting give another correction. with practice you will be able to judge how much of a nudge you need and how much to counter to get back to a level hover.

The heli isnt going to just sit there but with the right corrections you should hardly be touching the controls. Theres a good article somewhere called "stop touching the controls" or something to that effect, its pretty much about over correcting. Either by giving big nudges or by giving far too many nudges.

[bazsound]

Also id recomend flying with the canopy on, it will offer some protection to the battery and also the servo arms and links.

not sure why people fly with canopy off, its harder to see orientation and i dont think the weight saving makes that much of a difference. either that or the they had busted there canopy up and havnt replaced it yet.