Remove slop from Align metal tail grips - HeliFreak
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Old 11-17-2008, 09:25 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Remove slop from Align metal tail grips

The Align metal tail grips I have seen are as sloppy as the stock plastic. By removing .010" from each end of the hub you can adjust the slop to a minimum like a Kasama tail. After the modifications listed below assemble as normal using medium loctite on the 2mm screw. Adjust the 2mm screw Gently to get a light preload on the bearings but not so tight that it feels notchy. (just like a Kasama) let the loctite cure fully

The button head blade bolt with no nut make this the worst tail I have seen for pushrod forces to date. 40 oz. of pushrod force. at max. pitch The stock plastic grips are only 13 oz. force. This is a video of the testing and the force reduction after using a custom Chinese bolt and nut.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWkQGFaArzg

picture 1 shows the hub sticking out above the thrust bearing which is why it is sloppy
picture 2 shows the end of the hub that you remove .010" from both ends (sand or file it off) dont take too much or it wont pilot the outer thrust washer.
picture 3 show the modified hub below the thrust bearing allowing you to preload the bearings
picture 4 shows the washer on the left with the stamping burr on the edge. The washer on the right has been sanded flat on a piece of 400 or 600 sandpaper to remove the burr. Do this to both washers and put the sanded face against the thrust washer
picture 5 shows custom Chinese bolt and nut to reduce pushrod force.

PM me if you are interested in the custom Chinese bolt and nut.
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Last edited by HEIM JOINT; 11-19-2008 at 06:46 AM.. Reason: added link to video
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Old 11-17-2008, 09:54 PM   #2 (permalink)
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FANTASTIC POST!!!
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Old 11-17-2008, 10:00 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Nice work. Especially on the pushrod forces. That might explain why the 9257 works well for some pilots and not others. With only 27.8oz of torque its fine with the plastic grips but likely underrated with the metal grips. It's a wonder more manufactures aren't including this balancing in the grips. Maybe they think its the servo manufacter's problem to solve.

Just courious, how are you measuring the pushrod forces? Have you measured the Kasama or MicroHeli tail grips?
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Old 11-17-2008, 10:05 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I'm going to continue to use the plastic tail grips, but shave off 10 mils from each end of my hubs (as per Heim's recommendation) to get rid of the slop.
If I were Heim, I would offer a package of milled hubs, chinese hardware, and thrust bearings with decked races. Plug and play!
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Old 11-17-2008, 11:16 PM   #5 (permalink)
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NOTE this is for the 600 , just noticed this is the 500 forum .. but it still works on the 500. I used a 12mm 2.5mm bolt i recall. Works great i must say.

I mod all my tails on my align heli's

I put in an extra bearing in before the thrust set.

hub - bearing - bearing - thrust bearing.

Get a 15-16mm button headed bolt,
sand 3-4mm of the threads of the end of the bolt (just a swipe on the sander to remove the threads)
sanding needed because the hub isn't threded to the bottom of the hole.
dry fit the assembly and not the slop in the grips,
take apart and sand a bit off and repeat.
Your looking for a slop free fit when the bolt bottoms out on the hub , but before the thrust bearing gets notchy.

don't worry about the thrust bearing , it's not going anywhere.
Now that the thrust bearing is out of the depths of the grip , there no chance for it to bind up (see sanding outer washers to help prevent tail wag).

Same as the quk setup but alot less. I've had a few fellow flyers with 611's do this mod , they got a better tail 2 points more gain on the 611.

Martin
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Old 11-18-2008, 09:10 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregor View Post
Nice work. Especially on the pushrod forces. That might explain why the 9257 works well for some pilots and not others. With only 27.8oz of torque its fine with the plastic grips but likely underrated with the metal grips. It's a wonder more manufactures aren't including this balancing in the grips. Maybe they think its the servo manufacter's problem to solve.

Just courious, how are you measuring the pushrod forces? Have you measured the Kasama or MicroHeli tail grips?

VIDEO OF THE TEST AND THE CHINESE WEIGHT SCREW AND NUT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWkQGFaArzg

Yes I have done the T500Kasama, T500Align metal, Gaui 200 stock & microheli, T600 stock, coming soon T600 Kasama, T250 stock

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Old 11-18-2008, 12:20 PM   #7 (permalink)
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HEIM,

Nice setup! I like what you've done. I noticed this test was with the plastic blade grips. Do the metal blade grips need larger weights to counteract the addtional force?

Also, are you able to share the pushrod results of the T500 Kasama grips?
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Old 11-18-2008, 02:01 PM   #8 (permalink)
 

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Nice job, Heim.

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Old 11-18-2008, 07:52 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregor View Post
HEIM,

Nice setup! I like what you've done. I noticed this test was with the plastic blade grips. Do the metal blade grips need larger weights to counteract the addtional force?

Also, are you able to share the pushrod results of the T500 Kasama grips?
Yes the metal grips generaly require more correction.
The stock T500 plastic grips were about 13 oz. pushrod force at 20 degrees.
The Kasama was about 25 oz. pushrod force at 20 degrees
The align metal grips were over 40 oz. at full deflection.

I will post a video of the Align metal test including servo amperage soon.

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Old 11-18-2008, 10:02 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Really neat stuff! I was tempted to shave off some of that extra tub. This sure made it easy to break out the file. I'm hoping to get a little more gain out of my gyro.
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Old 11-19-2008, 12:02 AM   #11 (permalink)
 

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For those that haven't seen Heim's videos which are definitive with respect to the "tennis racket" effect(and how tail blade grips can be calibrated to minimize this effect), they are very informative.

That instrumentation is used to accurately describe this effect helps us all to understand some of the more "obscure" aspects of our "mechanical nightmares".

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Old 11-19-2008, 01:27 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Finless suggested a very simple mod for the Kasama bladegrips. Just using a slightly longer bolt, two small steel nuts and one nylock nut. I've not actually measured it but I guess that should lower those 25oz on the Kasama grips a bit! (Everything needed was included in my rcskrewz set)

Using a Torquetube, S9254, Kasama grips with Finless mod, carbon blades and a Spartan (but with my LT2100T before too) I've got a super crisp and solid tail.
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Old 11-19-2008, 02:56 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Tonight I sanded off 10 mils from each end of my tail hub (plus my two spares) and carefully tightened the (thread locked) bolts down until there was the slightest drag on the bearings. I'll be test flying tomorrow and will post some updates.
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Old 11-19-2008, 05:44 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Default Video of Align metal tail grip testing

This is the Video of the Testing on the Align metal tail grips:
https://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=104340
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Old 11-19-2008, 05:58 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jvthert View Post
Finless suggested a very simple mod for the Kasama bladegrips. Just using a slightly longer bolt, two small steel nuts and one nylock nut. I've not actually measured it but I guess that should lower those 25oz on the Kasama grips a bit! (Everything needed was included in my rcskrewz set)

Using a Torquetube, S9254, Kasama grips with Finless mod, carbon blades and a Spartan (but with my LT2100T before too) I've got a super crisp and solid tail.
I am not suggesting that you have to buy my Chinese weights to fix this problem. It is Just a lot easier to have a Custom single self locking bolt and nut instead of a stack of parts. Also when tuning the weight of these in the design stage I remove material from the face of the bolt and nut in .005" increments to hit the optimum weight. .005" can change the pushrod force several ounces. So you are not going to "optimize" the weight without testing with a force gage. The further the weight is from the blade feathering axis the more effective it is. So my weights weigh less because the mass CG is moved out further from the blade feathering axis. This minimizes the extra centrifugal force on the blade grip bearings. Also the weights of the nuts and bolts of each set are matched within .003g to eliminate any possibility of these causing vibration.

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Last edited by HEIM JOINT; 11-19-2008 at 07:10 AM.. Reason: update
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Old 11-21-2008, 11:09 PM   #16 (permalink)
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do you sell them

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Old 11-22-2008, 05:51 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yrcmod8 View Post
do you sell them

Ronny
The Trex 500 chinese weights are $16.50 a set plus $2.00 shipping & handling for up to 2 sets in USA (US postal letter) I need:
what type (kasama, Align metal or stock plastic)
quantity,
your name & shipping address
email address
to send you a paypal invoice that can be paid with credit, debit, or paypal. Thanks for your interest.

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Old 11-22-2008, 08:32 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Default sanding

o.k i get the hub sanding bit but the washers?
you mean to sand down the side that don,t touch the thrust washer right? and after that is done when i put the washer back together the sanded side sould be faceing away from the thrust bearing right? the bearings stil need to ride in the groove
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Old 11-22-2008, 12:07 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I have a set of Heim Joints weight mod but have not tried it yet due to my schedule, vacations, etc....
I will say my mod just helps take out some tennis racket effect. It is not "exact" like Heim Joint shows in his test vids. He worked to get the exact proper weight so I know his will be a better mod than my quicky in the field mod. As you see in my mod video there is still some effect left just not as bad as no weights.

I hope to try them this weekend on my 500 and will let you all know.

Bob
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Old 11-22-2008, 12:35 PM   #20 (permalink)
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hi there bob
i,m getting the metal tail grips
and would like to know why??? is there slop or a wobble in the grips???
why is this why not like the kasama grips
any info would be sweet
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