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Old 01-11-2009, 08:08 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default What makes heli more responsive

What are the relative increases in responsiveness for the following heli changes? Maybe put them in order from most to least impact or rate them each on 1 to 10 scale. All I've done so far is move the fly bar weights all the way in and install Trex paddles and it was a nice improvement:

1. Move flybar weights all the way in.
2. Remove flybar weights.
3. Replace wood blades with CF.
4. Replace flybar paddels with CF.
5. Flip mixer arms.
6. Blade grip flip.
7. Install flybarless system.
8. Add negative expo.
9. What did I miss?
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Old 01-11-2009, 08:16 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I don't think you can rate those things from most to least impact. Removing the flybar weights makes more of an impact then moving them inward. Expo doesn't change the performance, it only allows you to send more or less control input with the same stick movement. Flipping the mixer arms and grips only allows you to get more total pitch, and in my experience, there is a point of diminishing return with that. Eventually you have so much pitch that you stall the blades, bog the motor, or both.

"Responsive" is not an objective measurement, and it is a combination of many different factors. Motor power, cyclic speed, thrust change speed (acceleration), light weight, blade flex, and many other factors combine to affect performance, and I think in order to get performance Nirvana, it is a matter of setting up the helicopter to your personal preference. What you consider good performance might really annoy someone else.

Example: does a dump truck have better performance than a F1 car? It can haul more stuff, and the engine is stronger - so it performs better for moving stuff around, but the F1 car is better in the turns
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Old 01-11-2009, 08:23 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Jasmine2501 View Post
I don't think you can rate those things from most to least impact. Removing the flybar weights makes more of an impact then moving them inward. Expo doesn't change the performance, it only allows you to send more or less control input with the same stick movement. Flipping the mixer arms and grips only allows you to get more total pitch, and in my experience, there is a point of diminishing return with that. Eventually you have so much pitch that you stall the blades, bog the motor, or both.

"Responsive" is not an objective measurement, and it is a combination of many different factors. Motor power, cyclic speed, thrust change speed (acceleration), light weight, blade flex, and many other factors combine to affect performance, and I think in order to get performance Nirvana, it is a matter of setting up the helicopter to your personal preference. What you consider good performance might really annoy someone else.

Example: does a dump truck have better performance than a F1 car? It can haul more stuff, and the engine is stronger - so it performs better for moving stuff around, but the F1 car is better in the turns

Well, I didn't even use the word performance??? I asked about responsiveness and to be more specific, cyclic responsiveness, and to be even more specific "what's makes the heli flip and roll faster? 1 is no impact and 10 is tremendous impact.

Jazzy rates option 8 as 1, no impact, which is what I thought it would get.
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Old 01-11-2009, 08:36 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Penguin View Post
Well, I didn't even use the word performance??? I asked about responsiveness and to be more specific, cyclic responsiveness, and to be even more specific "what's makes the heli flip and roll faster? 1 is no impact and 10 is tremendous impact.

Jazzy rates option 8 as 1, no impact, which is what I thought it would get.
it has alot to do with mechanics as well.....look at the way the 400 mixes which is your standard bell/hiller system vs. somthing like the MSHeli Protos which is an altogether diff design...
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Old 01-11-2009, 08:38 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Jasmine2501 View Post
... Flipping the mixer arms and grips only allows you to get more total pitch, and in my experience, there is a point of diminishing return with that. Eventually you have so much pitch that you stall the blades, bog the motor, or both...
I'm pretty convinced that flipping the mixer arms definately increases cyclic responsiveness and has no effect on pitch. It has similar effect as removing flybar weights but not sure how it compares on 1-10 scale. I tried flipping mixer arm and did a short hover and my heli was near uncontrolable so I changed it right back. Right after that I found my flybar holder cracked so maybe I'll try it again. I think the blade grip flip will get a 1 though.
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Old 01-11-2009, 08:54 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Blade~400~er View Post
it has alot to do with mechanics as well.....look at the way the 400 mixes which is your standard bell/hiller system vs. somthing like the MSHeli Protos which is an altogether diff design...
Are you sure you are looking at a Protos and a Blade 400. They have the same head style. That is unless you changed your out for the Trex type head like it seems a lot of ppl do.
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Old 01-11-2009, 08:57 PM   #7 (permalink)
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you'r thumbs........
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Old 01-11-2009, 08:58 PM   #8 (permalink)
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You can also replace the stock dampeners with something a little stiffer like tygon tubing. It really makes the collective sensitive, too much for my taste though but someone may appreciate it.

I also found swapping the flybar paddles for the new outrage paddles also helped.
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Old 01-11-2009, 08:58 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penguin View Post
I'm pretty convinced that flipping the mixer arms definately increases cyclic responsiveness and has no effect on pitch. It has similar effect as removing flybar weights but not sure how it compares on 1-10 scale. I tried flipping mixer arm and did a short hover and my heli was near uncontrolable so I changed it right back. Right after that I found my flybar holder cracked so maybe I'll try it again. I think the blade grip flip will get a 1 though.
Flipping the mixers will increase BOTH the cyclic AND pitch RANGES.

Flybar weights, length and paddles affect the flybars influence on the blades pitch. It does not increase or decrease the range. It works more like EXPO.

Flipping the Blade grips changes the Delta on the head. Leading Edge, your cyclic and pitch changes will be smoother. Trailing Edge, your cyclic and pitch changes will be quicker and not as smooth.
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Old 01-11-2009, 09:01 PM   #10 (permalink)
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IF you look in the Video Sticky thread, I posted a video of me flying my B400. I have flipped grips and mixer arms. My Swash mixes are as follows....... Pit = 80 Ale = 60 Elv = 60. In that video I am flying with my dual rates set at 75% for Ale, Elv and Rud. That means I am only using 75% of the availble cyclic and tail pitch ranges.
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Old 01-11-2009, 09:05 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Forgot one of the main mods, added as 10. I believe a clear statement is "Rate relative impact of each mod as it applies to making a B400 flip and roll faster."

1. Move flybar weights all the way in.
2. Remove flybar weights.
3. Replace wood blades with CF.
4. Replace flybar paddels with CF.
5. Flip mixer arms.
6. Blade grip flip.
7. Install flybarless system.
8. Add negative expo.
9. What did I miss?
10. Swap stock B400 head for Trex 450 style head.

I'll take a stab based only on what I've read and what I've experienced with moving flybar weight all the way in.

1. Move flybar weights all the way in. 5 (because I know what impact it has, other ratings based on this one)
2. Remove flybar weights. 6
3. Replace wood blades with CF. 4
4. Replace flybar paddels with CF. 3
5. Flip mixer arms. 6
6. Blade grip flip. 1
7. Install flybarless system. 9
8. Add negative expo. 1
9. What did I miss?[/quote]
10. Swap stock B400 head for Trex 450 style head. 7
11. Stiffer dampners. 4
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Old 01-11-2009, 09:08 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sparx- View Post
Are you sure you are looking at a Protos and a Blade 400. They have the same head style. That is unless you changed your out for the Trex type head like it seems a lot of ppl do.

really?... i was under the impression that the protos was diff...i thought thats what made it so agile and lighting fast?
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Old 01-11-2009, 09:16 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Hi Penguin,

Yes, you ar right, the flybar has a huge impact on the responsiveness to cyclic input. It is a gyroscope, and therefore shows the symptoms of inertia. IMHO it is THE means to alter cyclic response.

You are right on with altering the weight and form of the paddles for fine-trimming the cyclic response.

I would also test the mixer arm flip again, since this changes the flybar ratio (I think). In stock position the mixer arms cause the flybar to have a greater (i.e., stabilizing) impact on cyclic input, than when flipped.

Also, stiffer head dampers or more shims in front of the damper increases cyclic respoonse.

Best,
Frank
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Old 01-11-2009, 09:30 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sparx- View Post
Flipping the mixers will increase BOTH the cyclic AND pitch RANGES.
I respectfully disagree that simply flipping mixer arms increases pitch because I measured pitch range (+-10), then I flipped mixer arms and measured pitch range again and it was still +-10. I can't see how it would affect cyclic range either??? Does this increase include radio changes too?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparx- View Post
Flybar weights, length and paddles affect the flybars influence on the blades pitch. It does not increase or decrease the range. It works more like EXPO.
Makes perfect sense to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparx- View Post
Flipping the Blade grips changes the Delta on the head. Leading Edge, your cyclic and pitch changes will be smoother. Trailing Edge, your cyclic and pitch changes will be quicker and not as smooth.
I'm afraid I don't understand this statement.
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Old 01-11-2009, 09:32 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Here we go again. I am sorry that you respectfully disagree. But it is a matter of simple levers. You are changing the ratio of swash movement to blade grip movement. It will increase the range.
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Old 01-11-2009, 09:44 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sparx- View Post
Here we go again. I am sorry that you respectfully disagree. But it is a matter of simple levers. You are changing the ratio of swash movement to blade grip movement. It will increase the range.
I'm very sorry Sparx. I just tried it again and it does make a huge difference in blade pitch range.
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Old 01-11-2009, 09:45 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Hopefully this will help you understand the relationship of the swash movement to mixer arm to blade grip movement
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Old 01-11-2009, 09:46 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penguin View Post
I'm very sorry Sparx. I just tried it again and it does make a huge difference in blade pitch range.
Then you are doing something wrong. Not sure what it could be, because this is pretty straight forward.
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Old 01-11-2009, 09:49 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sparx- View Post
Then you are doing something wrong. Not sure what it could be, because this is pretty straight forward.
I'm on the Sparx train now. I was trying to say I was wrong. Nice graffic!
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Old 01-11-2009, 09:56 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
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I'm on the Sparx train now. I was trying to say I was wrong. Nice graffic!
Sorry, I mis-read your reply up there. Trying to get the kids to settle down and read at the same time. Never works.

Thanks for the kudos on the graphic. I hope that helps you understand what is going on when the swash and flybar move and how they inturn affect the blades pitch.
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