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Newbies: Tips and Information Section of HF, specifically for Passing along info to newcomers to the hobby. Setup, tweaking, orientation practice, etc.


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Old 04-18-2010, 11:19 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Gyro Delay 101

I haven't seen any threads or any good info on how to set up the delay on a gyro. I see a basic explanation but nothing I can use in terms of the steps....so here goes!

What is delay for? It is used to coordinate a gyro's output with a servo. Sometimes when a servo is slow there is a time delay between what the gyro wants to happen and what the servo ends up doing. This results in poor piro stop quality....which means a mushy stop or a bounce back.

When delay is set up well the piro stop is crisp and prompt with no bounce back.

Before getting into gain and delay please note that for tail performance you need to make sure that the headspeed is sufficient for the heli. This gives the tail enough power to perform its job. Also make sure that there is sufficient pitch at the tail. About 45 degrees CW and 35 degrees CCW is sufficient. Take care of slop and binding as well....the tail should move very smoothly and easily.

How I set up delay:

1) Go through the mechanical setup of the gyro and servo as per instructions.

2) If instructions call for a rate mode setup do this first.

3) Now you should be ready to adjust gain and delay.

4) Increase the delay to Maximum. This allows us to deal with just the gain part of things first. The tail will feel mushy if you try to fly around like this. That is ok for now as we are doing gain first.

5) Now hover the heli and increase the gain until you see wag. Then back it down a few points. I like to do some mild climbs to see how much the tail 'gives'. The tail should hold its vertical line and not move out noticeably. You should also not experience any wag....lower the gain if you do.

6) Now perform left and right piros and see how it stops. Decrease the amount of delay step by step and take note of how the tail stops in a piro in both directions. What you should notice is that as the delay is decreased the piro stops will become more and more crisp. Then as delay is further decreased you will see more and more bounce. This is where you want to back off the delay.... do not overshoot the delay or then you will see bounce.

This should get you a nicely holding tail and great quality of piro stops.

I hope this was helpful and please let me know if something is not clear or doesn't work for you!
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Old 04-19-2010, 12:56 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Nice write up airjawed.

But what is the idea behind maxing out the delay before adjusting the gain?
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Old 04-19-2010, 03:33 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Bob O View Post
Nice write up airjawed.

But what is the idea behind maxing out the delay before adjusting the gain?
Thanks Bob O!!

If you start with too little delay or no delay you could very easily see what looks like wag if you were to input any stick while trying to get the gain adjusted. It is very hard to adjust gain without using the rudder! Any use of rudder requires the delay to be set correctly first.

Lets say you never set your delay(like what most people do). You get your gain dialed in and you have a bounce. Then you might add some delay to get rid of the bounce. Then you could go back and increase your gain a few clicks. It would just add more work and possible confusion when you are setting things up.

I apply the same principle to setting up the governor and setting up the tail. First set up the tail and then set up the governor.... otherwise you may get some wag and not know if it is coming from the gov or from the gyro.

The overall idea is to have less work and tuning to do. You could also select different delays and then see which one had the highest gain and which one had flew the best...but that would be a lot of time and work!!
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Old 04-19-2010, 07:20 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Airjaweed,

Which gyros are you talking about. I thought that for the popular Futaba 401 that delay was only for non digital servos.
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Old 04-19-2010, 08:37 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Airjaweed,

Which gyros are you talking about. I thought that for the popular Futaba 401 that delay was only for non digital servos.
Delay has nothing to do with digital or not. Delay has to do with the servo and how fast or slow it is physically. If the servo is slow then more delay is needed.

Servo type is where you select digital or analog servo type. On the 401 you have a switch for that. This selection is based on how fast the 'electronics' is on the inside of the servo. This has to do with the speed of processing info.

Generally you find that digital servos are faster but don't confuse this aspect of the setup.
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Old 04-19-2010, 04:00 PM   #6 (permalink)
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airjawed, thanks for sharing this.
i ve been searching for delay setting and only found fragments of info - nothing complete like this. In the end I gave up, thinking that everybody use digital servos (I dont have one) and they don't bother with delay
A question: At step 6, do you have to do a full piro (360deg) or 90 degrees would be sufficient? It's my first set up and i m not up for a full piro yet
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Old 04-19-2010, 04:12 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by dk31 View Post
airjawed, thanks for sharing this.
i ve been searching for delay setting and only found fragments of info - nothing complete like this. In the end I gave up, thinking that everybody use digital servos (I dont have one) and they don't bother with delay
A question: At step 6, do you have to do a full piro (360deg) or 90 degrees would be sufficient? It's my first set up and i m not up for a full piro yet
I do full piros as then the spin goes from full speed to a stop that way. If you can not manage a full piro then do as much as you can. If you aren't managing full speed piros then you probably wouldn't have really noticed much of a bounce anyway. So adjust things based on how you use the heli. Your need for a lot of gain may also not be so crucial either.

The more you demand out of the tail the more you need to tune the gain and delay.... so don't worry too much and don't do something that you would lose control or orientation with.

If you are seeing a bounce and you aren't pushing too hard (like with only a 90 degree turn) then you may need to look into some other setup issues. In my first post I mention headspeed, slop and binding. A too low of a headspeed will mean the tail is not moving with enough authority and that can look like a bounce or poor tail hold.... check up on your specific heli for what range of headspeed is needed. You can use a tach or go by the gearing calculations....tach is best.

Also make sure the linkage and slider is moving smooth as silk.
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Old 04-19-2010, 04:28 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Thank you pal, i ll leave it aside for the moment and reference back to your post in the future (not very remote i hope )
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Old 04-20-2010, 09:48 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Great write up Airjawad! Thanks for doing this

Bob
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Old 04-20-2010, 10:30 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Great write up Airjawad! Thanks for doing this

Bob
Bob...Thanks for the preview and seal of approval!

I think a lot of people may know what delay is but aren't sure how to go about tuning it. If anyone has other methods of setting up delay please feel free to add on or clarify things!!
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Old 04-20-2010, 12:11 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Bob...Thanks for the preview and seal of approval!

I think a lot of people may know what delay is but aren't sure how to go about tuning it. If anyone has other methods of setting up delay please feel free to add on or clarify things!!
1) Gain can be set up in Rate or HH. Gain/delay may not be the same for each.
2) After mecanical set up in Rate mode, then do gain/delay in Rate.
3) Moving from mechanical Rate setup to HH, then do gain/delay in HH.
4) Considering the above, one must choose a Rate or HH setup and reconfigure when going from one to the other.

Which of the above statements or combination of is correct?

David Boyd
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Old 04-20-2010, 12:41 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by boydd View Post
1) Gain can be set up in Rate or HH. Gain/delay may not be the same for each.
2) After mecanical set up in Rate mode, then do gain/delay in Rate.
3) Moving from mechanical Rate setup to HH, then do gain/delay in HH.
4) Considering the above, one must choose a Rate or HH setup and reconfigure when going from one to the other.

Which of the above statements or combination of is correct?

David Boyd
I would do a flight adjustment for gain/delay in the gyro mode in which you fly. If you fly rate then do the gain/delay in that mode....If you fly HH then do the gain/delay part in this mode.

The delay setting should not be different between the two modes. The gain setting does differ and typically is lower in HH mode.

Also the gain values do decrease as the headspeed increases. This means again that you need to set gain for each of the headspeeds you use. The delay would also in theory need to be set based on the headspeed but gyros do not have the ability to set or change the delay from the radio during flight. I would set delay based on the highest headspeed you fly on the most.

So to summarize....do a rate mode mechanical setup, hover adjust if needed or wanted, then do the gain/delay in the mode and headspeed you fly most often. Adjust just the gain for the different headspeeds you use(your radio should accomodate different gains for different headspeeds).
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Old 04-20-2010, 11:40 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Thanks for the post makes it easy. I really appreciate that. I read it the other day, and sort of understood. I thought I was not to use delay as well. I can't fly good enough right now any way. For the future you saved me a lot of research. Thanks again!

You got the finless approval! That says a lot. Way to go!
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Old 04-25-2010, 08:32 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Interesting thread. Delay is something that most people just ignore.

I have found that a little delay makes a big difference on my 500ESP using a GP780, but setting it seems rather hit and miss given that it's set by rudder stick position during setup. Unfortunately whilst messing around with setting the limits on my 450SEv2 (also with a GP780) having moved the ball in one hole on the servo disc I managed to get the dreaded GP780 tail twitch/wag again! Arrrgggghhhh! This is even using PU gel to mount it. I coiled the wires to the gyro (see PHOTO HERE) to be absolutely sure there were no vibrations getting through there to no effect.

This morning I decided to try to be a little more accurate than "stick 1/8 of an inch right", convinced that I must have inadvertently reset the delay on the gyro. Judging the delay by stick position is, as mentioned above, a bit hit and miss, so I made use of the SERVO menu on my Futaba 8FG transmitter to display the exact stick position as a %.

First the GP780 setup on the 450SEv2. I tried 0% delay in small heli mode (stick left), This was very fidgety. The 0% in large heli mode (stick right) and the tag wagged like a dog. 10%L left was better, but still quite twitchy. 20%L and the tail was "soft" for want of a better word, and wandered around a bit. 30%L and the tail was really not very well controlled at all. This suggested that somewhere between 10 and 20%L was required, so I tried 15%L. Rock solid. The difference in stick position setting this was tiny; I'd never be able to repeat it without the % reading from the tx SERVO menu.

Then for the 500ESP. Again, I tried %0 in both small and large heli mode. Tail was better in large heli mode being more twitchy than waggy. At 10%R still wagged quite a bit. At 20%R solid as a rock. At 30%R "soft" and wagging.

It would appear that with the GP780 setting the delay to max as advised at the start of this thread won't work. You need to get the delay right or you don't have a chance of setting the gain. Also you NEED to use the accurate servo position display on your tx or you'll never get repeatable results. I've just been lucky hitting the right delay in the past, and then unlucky when the tail "lost tune".

I'll be interested to hear how picky the delay settings are on other folks helis using the GP780.

Steve
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Old 04-25-2010, 11:45 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Steve Evans View Post
Interesting thread. Delay is something that most people just ignore.

I have found that a little delay makes a big difference on my 500ESP using a GP780, but setting it seems rather hit and miss given that it's set by rudder stick position during setup. Unfortunately whilst messing around with setting the limits on my 450SEv2 (also with a GP780) having moved the ball in one hole on the servo disc I managed to get the dreaded GP780 tail twitch/wag again! Arrrgggghhhh! This is even using PU gel to mount it. I coiled the wires to the gyro (see PHOTO HERE) to be absolutely sure there were no vibrations getting through there to no effect.

This morning I decided to try to be a little more accurate than "stick 1/8 of an inch right", convinced that I must have inadvertently reset the delay on the gyro. Judging the delay by stick position is, as mentioned above, a bit hit and miss, so I made use of the SERVO menu on my Futaba 8FG transmitter to display the exact stick position as a %.

First the GP780 setup on the 450SEv2. I tried 0% delay in small heli mode (stick left), This was very fidgety. The 0% in large heli mode (stick right) and the tag wagged like a dog. 10%L left was better, but still quite twitchy. 20%L and the tail was "soft" for want of a better word, and wandered around a bit. 30%L and the tail was really not very well controlled at all. This suggested that somewhere between 10 and 20%L was required, so I tried 15%L. Rock solid. The difference in stick position setting this was tiny; I'd never be able to repeat it without the % reading from the tx SERVO menu.

Then for the 500ESP. Again, I tried %0 in both small and large heli mode. Tail was better in large heli mode being more twitchy than waggy. At 10%R still wagged quite a bit. At 20%R solid as a rock. At 30%R "soft" and wagging.

It would appear that with the GP780 setting the delay to max as advised at the start of this thread won't work. You need to get the delay right or you don't have a chance of setting the gain. Also you NEED to use the accurate servo position display on your tx or you'll never get repeatable results. I've just been lucky hitting the right delay in the past, and then unlucky when the tail "lost tune".

I'll be interested to hear how picky the delay settings are on other folks helis using the GP780.

Steve
Great tip on using the servo menu thing to get an exact number position to get the delay done accurately on the 780. The 401 has a pot to turn. The Logitech 2100 has led's... and many of them now have USB PC interfacing for the setting of delay. So method will vary.

Perhaps for your specific setup going halfway should suffice. And probably for most gyros and setups using half of max delay would be a decent place to start. However this will very depending on heli and tail authority. As long as you are on the side of having too much delay to start with then you can set gain first and then not mistake the bounce from delay for wag.

In my guide you are only doing hovering and pitch pumps initially for the setting of gain. Did you have trouble hovering with delay at max?
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Old 04-25-2010, 12:19 PM   #16 (permalink)
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The LEDs on the 2100T were a nice feature, although I never found the delay (at least that's what Rotate Rate was alleged to be!) to be very effective.

I must confess I never tried max delay. 50% was as high as I tried on either heli and the wagging was pretty bad using a gain that I knew worked find with the right delay. Also just doing sharp 90 deg turns left and right the tail was really "soft" and lazy on the stops, so I decided to simply start from 0% and work up in 10% increments. I already suspected that too much delay was as bad as too little from the attempts I made to adjust it without using the SERVO menu on the tx.

Using 50% delay as you suggest would already be well past the optimum setting (at least based on the 15% and 20% figures I ended up at). For the GP780 (perhaps unlike any/all other gyros) it's not a case of more is better where delay is concerned. There is very much a sweet spot, either side of which the dreaded wag/twitch starts making gain setting impossible. I suggest that the procedure be to set the gain at about 30-35% which should be low enough not to cause wag, find the ideal delay by going up in steps of 10% (and then 5% once close), and then wind the gain up again as appropriate.

Of course the above is complicated by the fact that the GP780 is also apparently rather prone to vibration induced issues, so gyro mounting also needs careful attention. For this I high recommend the Align PU gel.

I have a suspicion that the
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Brand new intelligent control logic providing dynamic gain adjustment by detecting current flying conditions, allowing for consistent pirouetting rates during chaos or other demanding 3D maneuvers.
relies on the delay being right or it gets it's knickers in a twist. A number have folks have commented recently that the GP780 can have a bit of a wag/twitch on initial takeoff that is cured by simply performing a few turns. There's stuff going on in this gyro that's more complex than normal I think.

Steve
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Old 04-25-2010, 12:52 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I should correct myself. The logictech 2100 is not a delay really...it is a piro start/stop adjustment.

Steve:

I understand what you are saying and agree that delay has an optimum.

My question for you was a specific one. Can you hover the 780 with the delay set to maximum?
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Old 04-25-2010, 02:13 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I think that amounted to a delay in effect; let's just say that the 2100T manual requires a certain amount of interpretation!

I just tried the 450 with full delay, and yes it flies, but that tail was very wandery so I'd not like to try to set the gain like that.

On a slightly different note, I then took the 500 out for a couple of packs; whereas it had been spot on with 20% delay when I was settting it up in the garden this morning, the tail now seemed distinctly waggy. I tried adjusting the delay up and down, but no improvement. Got home, looked over the heli, and then realised that whilst the gain was 38% in normal mode (as used for setup earlier in the day), in idle up it was 45% from another little bit of experimentation. As above mid-stick I have normal and idle-up set the same, I'm sure all will be well at 38% gain and 20%R delay. I shall just have to wait until another day to confirm that. Doh!

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Old 04-28-2010, 04:49 PM   #19 (permalink)
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This is beginning to get frustrating!

Dropped the gain to 38% and it was better, but no longer rock solid as it had been. Had to drop to 35% to fix that. I seem to be spending a stupid number of battery packs messing around with the gyro rather than just flying.

On a number of occasions now I've had the tail hold improve considerably after some setup change. Moving from the boom block to the bottom tray made a huge difference. PU gel (and Spartan DS760 plate) improved things more. That made things stable enough that playing around with delay was meaningful. After all that the tail was seemingly perfect. Yet, unfortunately, there's some other variable at work here as I put away what I think is a perfectly setup heli, and then find it's wagging again intermittently on the next flight. Gain or delay need a tweak, and so the first battery gets wasted as I try to sort it out. Could it be gyro temperature, or perhaps the tail servo (DS520), which does come down warm, changes it's response speed? Could it be that it's not my fine tuning that does any good, but just the gyro warming up?

For all the moaning folks made about the LGT2100T gyro setup, I found that better than the GP780 to be honest in terms of repeatable performance.

Steve
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Old 04-28-2010, 07:41 PM   #20 (permalink)
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This is beginning to get frustrating!

Dropped the gain to 38% and it was better, but no longer rock solid as it had been. Had to drop to 35% to fix that. I seem to be spending a stupid number of battery packs messing around with the gyro rather than just flying.

On a number of occasions now I've had the tail hold improve considerably after some setup change. Moving from the boom block to the bottom tray made a huge difference. PU gel (and Spartan DS760 plate) improved things more. That made things stable enough that playing around with delay was meaningful. After all that the tail was seemingly perfect. Yet, unfortunately, there's some other variable at work here as I put away what I think is a perfectly setup heli, and then find it's wagging again intermittently on the next flight. Gain or delay need a tweak, and so the first battery gets wasted as I try to sort it out. Could it be gyro temperature, or perhaps the tail servo (DS520), which does come down warm, changes it's response speed? Could it be that it's not my fine tuning that does any good, but just the gyro warming up?

For all the moaning folks made about the LGT2100T gyro setup, I found that better than the GP780 to be honest in terms of repeatable performance.

Steve
What is PU Gel? I'm not sure I understand why you didn't just use the spartan mounting kit completely? You mount the metal plate with a thin pad onto the gyro. And then you mount the gyro/plate to the heli using the thick pad.

When the gyro is lightweight vibrations will really transmit into the gyro and confuse it...usually making it drift.

Of course get rid of vibrations.

Are your battery packs very different to each other? You may be getting different headspeeds and therefore need different gains.
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