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Old 10-16-2010, 10:04 AM   #61 (permalink)
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OK...thread has been linked into the stickied thread 'setup 101'.... great place for a lot of info on all sorts of things!
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Old 11-01-2010, 08:18 PM   #62 (permalink)
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I have a GP780 in both my helis; 600 have a 780 + DS620, and my 450 pro have 780+S9650 (Futaba) in a previous post i read that people did complain about a wag on initial hover, but that dissapear on the first turns. This is my case, on initial take off I do get a little wag, not all the time to be honest, but then I do some circuits and loops and never notice the wag, being as wrenching is part of the hobby I've been undecided wether to mess with this or not, i don't want to end up with a useless set up, as my Heli is flying. If I mess wit this, I will go ahead and also do the flip that Finless recommends, do you think this would be any good, or just leave it as is. very nice thread BTW, I wasn't very clear on dealy either, I come from nitro cars, no gyros over there.
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Old 11-01-2010, 10:19 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tucky View Post
I have a GP780 in both my helis; 600 have a 780 + DS620, and my 450 pro have 780+S9650 (Futaba) in a previous post i read that people did complain about a wag on initial hover, but that dissapear on the first turns. This is my case, on initial take off I do get a little wag, not all the time to be honest, but then I do some circuits and loops and never notice the wag, being as wrenching is part of the hobby I've been undecided wether to mess with this or not, i don't want to end up with a useless set up, as my Heli is flying. If I mess wit this, I will go ahead and also do the flip that Finless recommends, do you think this would be any good, or just leave it as is. very nice thread BTW, I wasn't very clear on dealy either, I come from nitro cars, no gyros over there.
The reason for this has to do with the headspeed lowering as the battery drains. At first your headspeed is higher and needs less gain.....as the headspeed lowers from the battery draining you need less gain. This is why the wag disappears.

You will see this with all gyros on helis not in governor mode.

All you have to do is lower the gain just a very little bit. Or run in governor mode.

The grip flip is one way to correct the incorrect geometry seen on the torque tube 450's. The other option is to dremmel the tail shaft and place the hub further out. I chose the second option.
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Old 11-06-2010, 02:25 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Thanks for starting a good thread. I'm still quite a newbie to helis and just today maiden hovered my new TRex 450 Sport Super Combo . Until tonight I couldn't find any help on delay. The kit manual gave a starting range for the gain but nothing for delay (GP780).

I borrowed my friend's training legs, went to my local sports ground and gave it a go. It tail wagged like crazy as soon as it started to lift. In a later attempt I got it airborne because I thought that maybe friction on the grass and the springyness of the training legs might be messing with the gyro sensing and getting out of sync or something but no, it was really aggressive so I set it back down quick.

I tried all kinds of combinations of gain and delay (I fly normal gyro mode because that's what I learned with on my little Honey Bee cp2). Nothing seemed to work, and trying things in heading hold was no use either, until that is I realised my (Futaba T10CP) GYRO SENSE MIX was not actually active! There I was trying the full range of gain and delay in various combinations but really I wasn't changing a thing. As soon as I activated the mix I guessed at some gain (I was going to set 70% but decided 69 was a better number fnar fnar) and she was sweet.

Consequently I have no idea what delay setting I currently have - I blindly tried a whole range of those too but it was all overcome by my gain being waaay out somewhere. Anyway, what it's set at now is good enough for me to get some stick time hovering about and get the feel of this lovely machine. Meantime i'll carry on hooliganing about on my Phoenix RC Sim.

Thanks again for this info. If/when I need to fine tune it or make some improvements at least i'll know how!

btw this is my first post on this site, so your thread can claim that for your efforts too, cheers
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Old 11-06-2010, 03:37 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by airjawed View Post
The reason for this has to do with the headspeed lowering as the battery drains. At first your headspeed is higher and needs less gain.....as the headspeed lowers from the battery draining you need less gain. This is why the wag disappears.

You will see this with all gyros on helis not in governor mode.
.
If I get a wag is in the initial lift off, like I always take off and do a stationary hover for 3-4 seconds, then start flying, after that hover don't feel/see nothing. Do you think I would still need to lower my gain a bit?
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Old 11-07-2010, 10:29 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Tucky View Post
If I get a wag is in the initial lift off, like I always take off and do a stationary hover for 3-4 seconds, then start flying, after that hover don't feel/see nothing. Do you think I would still need to lower my gain a bit?
I would still lower it. That initial wag puts a lot of stress on the tail system and may just be the cause of early wear and tear.

It just may only require a half a point reduction.

You are better off being a point too low rather than a point too high. Too high and you'll get a wag at the wrong time which can be unsettling. I tend to see it on ail flips if set too high. Then it'll wag worse and worse and if you aren't good at controlling it you'll end up crashing.

Gain being really really low is also bad but you generally have to be far off before it does something really bad.

Lower it by half a point each day until it flies like you like it.
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Old 11-07-2010, 10:34 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hot Air View Post
Thanks for starting a good thread. I'm still quite a newbie to helis and just today maiden hovered my new TRex 450 Sport Super Combo . Until tonight I couldn't find any help on delay. The kit manual gave a starting range for the gain but nothing for delay (GP780).

I borrowed my friend's training legs, went to my local sports ground and gave it a go. It tail wagged like crazy as soon as it started to lift. In a later attempt I got it airborne because I thought that maybe friction on the grass and the springyness of the training legs might be messing with the gyro sensing and getting out of sync or something but no, it was really aggressive so I set it back down quick.

I tried all kinds of combinations of gain and delay (I fly normal gyro mode because that's what I learned with on my little Honey Bee cp2). Nothing seemed to work, and trying things in heading hold was no use either, until that is I realised my (Futaba T10CP) GYRO SENSE MIX was not actually active! There I was trying the full range of gain and delay in various combinations but really I wasn't changing a thing. As soon as I activated the mix I guessed at some gain (I was going to set 70% but decided 69 was a better number fnar fnar) and she was sweet.

Consequently I have no idea what delay setting I currently have - I blindly tried a whole range of those too but it was all overcome by my gain being waaay out somewhere. Anyway, what it's set at now is good enough for me to get some stick time hovering about and get the feel of this lovely machine. Meantime i'll carry on hooliganing about on my Phoenix RC Sim.

Thanks again for this info. If/when I need to fine tune it or make some improvements at least i'll know how!

btw this is my first post on this site, so your thread can claim that for your efforts too, cheers
Thanks! I appreciate the business from a new poster!

Adjust the delay when you feel like you are comfortable enough to do it. Till then enjoy things the way it is.

By the way I am now using the Fut 9257 with the servo horn at around 8mm(round servo horn). I have the delay set for 50% on small heli(I use D/R so that I know it is 50% each time using max stick). Seems to have done the trick for this gyro/servo/headspeed combination.
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Old 11-12-2010, 02:07 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Very interesting thread indeed.
But with my logitech gyro 6100t and its dedicated digital servo 6100G, I don't see anything related to the dreaded "Delay".
Anyone out there could point to the right delay settings on this specific gyro.
Thanks
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Old 11-12-2010, 03:01 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philippets View Post
Very interesting thread indeed.
But with my logitech gyro 6100t and its dedicated digital servo 6100G, I don't see anything related to the dreaded "Delay".
Anyone out there could point to the right delay settings on this specific gyro.
Thanks
i am putting this say gyro/servo in my t600.which size heli u have it in?
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Old 11-12-2010, 03:42 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by airjawed View Post
I would still lower it. That initial wag puts a lot of stress on the tail system and may just be the cause of early wear and tear.

It just may only require a half a point reduction.

You are better off being a point too low rather than a point too high. Too high and you'll get a wag at the wrong time which can be unsettling. I tend to see it on ail flips if set too high. Then it'll wag worse and worse and if you aren't good at controlling it you'll end up crashing.

Gain being really really low is also bad but you generally have to be far off before it does something really bad.

Lower it by half a point each day until it flies like you like it.
Funny thing, I tried a loop rather low, the tail broke loose coming out of the loop and not being so good I hit the floor. I'll fiddle with the gain this weekend before trying to fly again. luckly was just the blades and the main shaft... main gear too.
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Old 11-12-2010, 03:45 PM   #71 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by celm View Post
i am putting this say gyro/servo in my t600.which size heli u have it in?
Compass 600e 8S, the tail holds really great.
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Old 11-12-2010, 09:15 PM   #72 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philippets View Post
Very interesting thread indeed.
But with my logitech gyro 6100t and its dedicated digital servo 6100G, I don't see anything related to the dreaded "Delay".
Anyone out there could point to the right delay settings on this specific gyro.
Thanks
I believe the logitech 6100 would use the setting of 'smoothness' in the way delay works.

I have the logitech 2100 and on that one you adjust the 'rotate rate' the way delay is done.
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Old 11-12-2010, 09:18 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tucky View Post
Funny thing, I tried a loop rather low, the tail broke loose coming out of the loop and not being so good I hit the floor. I'll fiddle with the gain this weekend before trying to fly again. luckly was just the blades and the main shaft... main gear too.
Sounds like your batteries might not be doing well. You got a tail blowout and your headspeed drops after a few seconds making the wag go away.

Are your batteries any good?
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Old 11-13-2010, 06:09 AM   #74 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by airjawed View Post
I believe the logitech 6100 would use the setting of 'smoothness' in the way delay works.

I have the logitech 2100 and on that one you adjust the 'rotate rate' the way delay is done.
The smoothness setting, does a good job at smoothing the bounce but does not affect its intensity at all !
My head speed when hovering in idle up is 2010, no issue there.
Perhaps I should try to move the ball on the tail servo, can anyone recommend the proper distance for a successful setup.
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Old 11-13-2010, 07:56 AM   #75 (permalink)
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The smoothness setting, does a good job at smoothing the bounce but does not affect its intensity at all !
My head speed when hovering in idle up is 2010, no issue there.
Perhaps I should try to move the ball on the tail servo, can anyone recommend the proper distance for a successful setup.
Did you do a rate mode hover adjustment?

I try to use servo arm distances that take advantage of the entire servo throw if possible. So basically go the closest to center that you can without losing pitch at the tail.

I don't know about your heli, can someone help out?
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Old 11-13-2010, 11:32 AM   #76 (permalink)
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Did you do a rate mode hover adjustment?

I try to use servo arm distances that take advantage of the entire servo throw if possible. So basically go the closest to center that you can without losing pitch at the tail.

I don't know about your heli, can someone help out?
Yes, I've done the set up following Finless videos and, once again I'm very happy with the way the tail holds, it's really good even at full throttle straight up.

I will be soon fitting a carbon fiber rod on the tail servo and see if that makes any difference.
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Old 11-13-2010, 10:07 PM   #77 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by philippets View Post
Yes, I've done the set up following Finless videos and, once again I'm very happy with the way the tail holds, it's really good even at full throttle straight up.

I will be soon fitting a carbon fiber rod on the tail servo and see if that makes any difference.
Is your bounce in both directions?
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Old 11-14-2010, 06:36 PM   #78 (permalink)
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Is your bounce in both directions?
Yes, it happens regardless of the direction. I can minimize it somewhat if I release the rudder stick gently. Before you ask, let me tell you I have tested just about every expo possible on my DX7 with no result. it never goes away completely.
I don't think I have a faulty gyro either, because I struggled with this since day one.
My belt is looking good, not too slack , not too tight.
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Old 11-15-2010, 06:47 PM   #79 (permalink)
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Default 3M Scotch Clear Mounting Tape

I am a rookie pilot only doing tail in hovers currently. Being an engineer, I have done about a year of research on the Internet and Real Flight Sim, before I purchased my first kit.

I have read horror stories about the GP780, and thus paid extra attention when mounting. I even gone to the extent of making a 20x20x1.2mm stainless steel plate, just in case, before even completing my build. Built everything as per the manual with the exception of a Beam carbon tail control rod. Set with advice in post 14 with L15% delay.

Cautiously I took my maiden flight, gain on my 8FG at 70% (normal, not GY mode) as per manual. Wagged. Reduced to 60% before the tail calmed down, however, it didn't hold and drifted. DS420 went up to 43 degree Celsius, doing the wag. Reluctant to remount my gyro, I bumped gain to 80%, hoping for a miracle. Wagged worse, tail servo up to 46 degrees.

Did more research, zeal tape etc, metal plate.... Decided to cheap out and keep weight low, so bought the above mentioned tape. It was nice and rubbery, like Align PU, but 1mm thick. Used 2 layers; bottom layer 20x20mm. Second layer consisted of 4 pieces of 7x7mm squares at each corner. This gave me very good yaw damping. Took flight, could up the gain to 82% before I saw wag. Settled for 80%. Ds420 temp was now below 40 degC. In Singapore, ambient is 30degC +- 2 deg.

Want to share this method of mounting with troubled GP780 owners out there as it gave me an instant 20% more gain, and a happy tail with the stock electronics.
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Last edited by Ray Lan; 11-16-2010 at 02:51 AM.. Reason: Additional Info.
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Old 11-16-2010, 11:03 AM   #80 (permalink)
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Default Is this normal ?

I've been struggling with a small tail bounce on my knight 600e with a Logitech gyro 6100T and dedicated servo combo.
Despite all the suggestions I got from this board (thanks guys), I'm still at the same point.
However, today I noticed something a little strange.
When I move the rudder stick to one side and then come back to center and release the stick, the servo wheel backs up a tiny bit and finally stops, in other words this what I am witnessing when I fly.
Is this normal? it happens in both directions. Could it be the rudder stick on my DX7 is not really at neutral position when released ?
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