Fun, Learning, Friendship and Mutual Respect START  HERE


Unregistered
Go Back   HeliFreak > R/C Helicopters > Newbies: Tips and Information


Newbies: Tips and Information Section of HF, specifically for Passing along info to newcomers to the hobby. Setup, tweaking, orientation practice, etc.


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-16-2010, 12:37 PM   #81 (permalink)
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Jul 2010
Default

Priceless post, thanks airjawed - this really did clear up alot of confusion and misinformation i have had concerning delay
__________________
Trex 450 build incoming
Belt CP V2 carbon - Crashed & under repair
Twister FP 35mhz FM - might make 2.4 dunno
4ch co-axle indoor micro - rainy days & night time
3ch co-axle indoor micro - visitors and possible converts
JonnyKango is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 11-16-2010, 02:13 PM   #82 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 5,357
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Mar 2008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by philippets View Post
I've been struggling with a small tail bounce on my knight 600e with a Logitech gyro 6100T and dedicated servo combo.
Despite all the suggestions I got from this board (thanks guys), I'm still at the same point.
However, today I noticed something a little strange.
When I move the rudder stick to one side and then come back to center and release the stick, the servo wheel backs up a tiny bit and finally stops, in other words this what I am witnessing when I fly.
Is this normal? it happens in both directions. Could it be the rudder stick on my DX7 is not really at neutral position when released ?
That is normal for HH gyros. What happens on the bench is a mysterious world! OK..not completely mysterious but many people get confused when they watch the servo on the bench. It is normal.

Have you used a lot of 'smoothness' and it still happens? Also is the gyro mounting mushy? Maybe the lead wires are transmitting movement.

Of course, though I hate to ask, are you sure it isn't your thumbs doing it?
__________________
Trex 450 Pro 3xDS410M + MKS8910A+, Align FBL head w/Microbeast, CC 45 [email protected] 3400rpm(max timing, outrunner mode), Scorpion 2221-8 on 14t, Edge FBL main and tail, CF boom, CC BEC @ 6V
airjawed is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-16-2010, 02:14 PM   #83 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 5,357
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Mar 2008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyKango View Post
Priceless post, thanks airjawed - this really did clear up alot of confusion and misinformation i have had concerning delay
You are welcome!
__________________
Trex 450 Pro 3xDS410M + MKS8910A+, Align FBL head w/Microbeast, CC 45 [email protected] 3400rpm(max timing, outrunner mode), Scorpion 2221-8 on 14t, Edge FBL main and tail, CF boom, CC BEC @ 6V
airjawed is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-16-2010, 02:33 PM   #84 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Nov 2009
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by airjawed View Post
That is normal for HH gyros. What happens on the bench is a mysterious world! OK..not completely mysterious but many people get confused when they watch the servo on the bench. It is normal.

Have you used a lot of 'smoothness' and it still happens? Also is the gyro mounting mushy? Maybe the lead wires are transmitting movement.

Of course, though I hate to ask, are you sure it isn't your thumbs doing it?
No offense ! I'm getting old but not to the point my fingers are shaking, my other 450 sport does not show any problem.
I might try what you suggested with the foam and the wires and see, who knows...
Thanks
philippets is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-16-2010, 04:47 PM   #85 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 2,482
 

Join Date: May 2009
Default 9257/401

I"m at the end of ideas here ; I have a 9257/ 401 on the tail. I've been having
a hell of a time trying to ajust the gyro for a decent hold. A couple of days ago
I again set the delay/gain. It wasen't to my satisfaction but better than it ever was.
And today took the heli out, and there's that @#$5?$%&%* wag again. I wanted to fly it out of my sight, tired of having to ajust it every single time I want to fly.
Its 85% Align, EXI CF frame, Coptrex boom, 450M motor, 13T, 35A Align controller, Hyperion packs.
I calculated the rpm's from Debian Dog's vid, got 40,825rpm.
Its a bit cold here high 40's to low 50's. Even then, this summer was the same thing, needed ajustments.
Could it be the gyro' tired, I have a 401 clone and a telebee in the toolbox, got tired of ajustments so I got a 9257/401. Its like 4 quaters for a buck, ya know.
If you got an idea, I'm so open, you wouldn't believe.
sly the dogman is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-16-2010, 07:02 PM   #86 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 5,357
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Mar 2008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sly the dogman View Post
I"m at the end of ideas here ; I have a 9257/ 401 on the tail. I've been having
a hell of a time trying to ajust the gyro for a decent hold. A couple of days ago
I again set the delay/gain. It wasen't to my satisfaction but better than it ever was.
And today took the heli out, and there's that @#$5?$%&%* wag again. I wanted to fly it out of my sight, tired of having to ajust it every single time I want to fly.
Its 85% Align, EXI CF frame, Coptrex boom, 450M motor, 13T, 35A Align controller, Hyperion packs.
I calculated the rpm's from Debian Dog's vid, got 40,825rpm.
Its a bit cold here high 40's to low 50's. Even then, this summer was the same thing, needed ajustments.
Could it be the gyro' tired, I have a 401 clone and a telebee in the toolbox, got tired of ajustments so I got a 9257/401. Its like 4 quaters for a buck, ya know.
If you got an idea, I'm so open, you wouldn't believe.
Is the wag constant and while hovering?

Delay adjustment is all about a wag or bounceback at the end of a piro. Is this what is happening or is the wag constant?

I'm pretty sure you aren't really doing 40,000 rpm on the motor. It would take a full pack and not pitch conditions. What is your measured headspeed? If you don't know that then what is your Throttle curve like?
__________________
Trex 450 Pro 3xDS410M + MKS8910A+, Align FBL head w/Microbeast, CC 45 [email protected] 3400rpm(max timing, outrunner mode), Scorpion 2221-8 on 14t, Edge FBL main and tail, CF boom, CC BEC @ 6V
airjawed is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-16-2010, 08:01 PM   #87 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 2,482
 

Join Date: May 2009
Default

Yep, its constant, while hovering, looks like a shiver and while flying
at the end of a route as it turns and change directions it wags.
To get 40825 ; main gear 150T divided by 13T pinion = 11.5
3550kv X 11.5 = 40825
Maybe I mist something in the process, anyway.....
throttle curve ; 0, 40, 60, 80, 100

Headspeed ;
3550kv x 11.1 x 13T / 150T x 75% throttle = 2561
is that about right ?

This may not be accurate, on ReadyHeli site for calculating headspeed,
Avg rpm, 100% throttle, no gov = 3204
and max normal bogging applied will see rpm at 2830
Which is it ? To much info is like not enough.....

Last edited by sly the dogman; 11-17-2010 at 11:59 AM..
sly the dogman is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-17-2010, 07:21 PM   #88 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 5,357
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Mar 2008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sly the dogman View Post
Yep, its constant, while hovering, looks like a shiver and while flying
at the end of a route as it turns and change directions it wags.
To get 40825 ; main gear 150T divided by 13T pinion = 11.5
3550kv X 11.5 = 40825
Maybe I mist something in the process, anyway.....
throttle curve ; 0, 40, 60, 80, 100

Headspeed ;
3550kv x 11.1 x 13T / 150T x 75% throttle = 2561
is that about right ?

This may not be accurate, on ReadyHeli site for calculating headspeed,
Avg rpm, 100% throttle, no gov = 3204
and max normal bogging applied will see rpm at 2830
Which is it ? To much info is like not enough.....
First of all the 450M motor is rated at 3500kv so that makes things off a little. Not sure why you used 11.5 at one place and 11.1 in another place. Next is the idea that 100% throttle is one thing but really in flight you are not at that speed. You are probably much lower since your throttle curve is lower as well.

Basically you are lower than what you think.

Use the throttle curves in the manual. Do not lower them because you are trying to get a longer flight. If you want a longer flight then use a smaller pinion. For now keep things like the manual says...keep it stock.

Next... use a location on the servo horn at around 9-11mm from center. When you do this your limits settings should end up around 80-100. The closer to 100 without binding is the best.

Start with a delay setting of 0 for now. Increase it if you have a bounce only at the end of a piro. If you can not piro then leave it alone for now.

Lower your gain until the wag stops.

What I think is happening is your headspeed is too low for you to get good tail control. Hopefully the above should fix things.

Let us know how things work out...and in the mean time let us know what the limits and delay were set for.
__________________
Trex 450 Pro 3xDS410M + MKS8910A+, Align FBL head w/Microbeast, CC 45 [email protected] 3400rpm(max timing, outrunner mode), Scorpion 2221-8 on 14t, Edge FBL main and tail, CF boom, CC BEC @ 6V
airjawed is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-17-2010, 10:02 PM   #89 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 2,482
 

Join Date: May 2009
Default

The 11.5 is an error of typing on my part.
I thought that the 450M was a 3550kv.
Its a clone with 80% Align parts, curves were suggested, will download the manual
for actual % of curves.
I use a servo wheel and the rod is in the # 1 hole at 9mm from
the center.
What about the limit settings, your saying the limit on the gyro, right, 80 to 100 without binding
I set back the delay pot to 0.
I'll get back to you......
Thanks for helping me.
This thread are comming to an end, as you can see.
sly the dogman is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-17-2010, 11:59 PM   #90 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 2,482
 

Join Date: May 2009
Default

Downloaded the manual, got the stock curves.
Limit is close to 100, no binding,
servo rod is at 9mm from center.
Definitely flies better, 71% gain seems to be the magic #.
Its still kinda soft, not rock solid.
I have tested these settings in hover mode in my basement,
as soon as the weather permits I'll take it all outside and try
it out.
But its getting cold here, in the middle 40's. Its better to leave the
heli outside for a while before flying, I've been told, right ?
sly the dogman is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-18-2010, 07:26 AM   #91 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 5,357
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Mar 2008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sly the dogman View Post
The 11.5 is an error of typing on my part.
I thought that the 450M was a 3550kv.
Its a clone with 80% Align parts, curves were suggested, will download the manual
for actual % of curves.
I use a servo wheel and the rod is in the # 1 hole at 9mm from
the center.
What about the limit settings, your saying the limit on the gyro, right, 80 to 100 without binding
I set back the delay pot to 0.
I'll get back to you......
Thanks for helping me.
This thread are comming to an end, as you can see.
450M is a 3500kv motor. It comes stock with a 14T by the way. If you are running a smaller pinion then you may need to only fly with your throttle curves even higher.

The idea with the Pro or other newer align 450's is to have the headspeed at around 3000 or better for ideal tail performance. As you get lower in headspeed the tail authority is reduced and as such the gyro can't do its job.
__________________
Trex 450 Pro 3xDS410M + MKS8910A+, Align FBL head w/Microbeast, CC 45 [email protected] 3400rpm(max timing, outrunner mode), Scorpion 2221-8 on 14t, Edge FBL main and tail, CF boom, CC BEC @ 6V
airjawed is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-18-2010, 09:17 AM   #92 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 2,482
 

Join Date: May 2009
Default

With all this said and done, how do I calculate my headspeed.
With the HeliDirect calculater ? Or do you have a method I
can use ?
And I checked I do have a 14T.
Is there anything I can do to have more authority on the tail.
sly the dogman is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-18-2010, 08:39 PM   #93 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 5,357
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Mar 2008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sly the dogman View Post
With all this said and done, how do I calculate my headspeed.
With the HeliDirect calculater ? Or do you have a method I
can use ?
And I checked I do have a 14T.
Is there anything I can do to have more authority on the tail.
There really is not substitute for actually measuring the headspeed. You can calculate but really that only gives you a ballpark figure.

In your case one way to increase headspeed/tailspeed(which gets more authority) is to increase the Throttle curves so that you are always 85% or higher while in flight. Basically increase your curve to something like 0-65-85-92.5-100 for the normal curve. Idle up modes would have the lowest point at 85....something like 100-92.5-85-92.5-100...or even a flat 100-100-100-100-100.

There are more ways to increase tail authority but having a proper Throttle Curve is the easiest way. Never use TC's to lower the headspeed. Use the stock curves or higher and if that isn't in the right ballpark then switch to a higher pinion.

Let's keep this thread about delay. If you want you can PM me and I'll help out as much as possible. You can also start another thread with your questions as well.
__________________
Trex 450 Pro 3xDS410M + MKS8910A+, Align FBL head w/Microbeast, CC 45 [email protected] 3400rpm(max timing, outrunner mode), Scorpion 2221-8 on 14t, Edge FBL main and tail, CF boom, CC BEC @ 6V
airjawed is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-18-2010, 09:00 PM   #94 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 2,482
 

Join Date: May 2009
Default

Thank you very much,
and I understand about the thread.
sly the dogman is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-27-2011, 04:20 PM   #95 (permalink)
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Mar 2010
Default

can anyone please tell me the steps of rudder (tail) tracking.

this came about because i was doing a upside down hover and i pushed the negative to come out of the hover and also pushed forward on the elevator and the tail did not stay locked in, it moved to the side. so someone told me that i needed to track the tail and im new at that.

so if someone could tell me the steps to my gyro can be locked in all the time.

thanks in advance.
carlocivicsi is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-27-2011, 06:01 PM   #96 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 5,357
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Mar 2008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by carlocivicsi View Post
can anyone please tell me the steps of rudder (tail) tracking.

this came about because i was doing a upside down hover and i pushed the negative to come out of the hover and also pushed forward on the elevator and the tail did not stay locked in, it moved to the side. so someone told me that i needed to track the tail and im new at that.

so if someone could tell me the steps to my gyro can be locked in all the time.

thanks in advance.
What heli and what is the setup you are using?

Usually a blow out is due to either not having enough headspeed/tailspeed or from the tail blades not having enough pitch.

Run the headspeed in the range recommended for the heli...and the tail pitch when you give full rudder should ideally be 45 degrees against torque and 35 with....ideally but close to that is usually fine.

Does the tail blow out when you give full collective pitch from an upright hover?

As a beginner you may be doing things a little rough but even so a well setup heli would not blow out.

Another possibility is too low a gain on the gyro but check the above first.
__________________
Trex 450 Pro 3xDS410M + MKS8910A+, Align FBL head w/Microbeast, CC 45 [email protected] 3400rpm(max timing, outrunner mode), Scorpion 2221-8 on 14t, Edge FBL main and tail, CF boom, CC BEC @ 6V
airjawed is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-27-2011, 06:25 PM   #97 (permalink)
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Mar 2010
Default

Trex 500 gp780 and the gyro that came with it I'm doing all this with idle up
carlocivicsi is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-27-2011, 06:47 PM   #98 (permalink)
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Mar 2010
Default

Airjawed. Would u b so kind to just explain how to track the rudder.

I've heard that this is done in normal but I just don't know the complete steps. Thanks.
carlocivicsi is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-28-2011, 08:05 AM   #99 (permalink)
Registered Users
 
Posts: 5,357
Thread Starter Thread Starter
 
My HF Map location
Join Date: Mar 2008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by carlocivicsi View Post
Airjawed. Would u b so kind to just explain how to track the rudder.

I've heard that this is done in normal but I just don't know the complete steps. Thanks.
I've never heard the term "tracking the rudder". Perhaps they were referring to the idea of doing a rate mode setup? Even if that was what they were saying it is not a cause for blowout.

If they really were talking about 'tracking' the way you do with main blades there is no way. If the blades do not track perfectly then something is bent and needs replacing.

But since you ask, this is how to do a rate mode setup:

Put the gyro in rate mode. You do this in the radio. The indicator light should be red when in rate mode. Different radios have different ways of doing this but basically you have HH on one side of zero and Rate mode on the other side of zero.

Hopefully the tail blades have a little bit of pitch to it so that it counteracts the torque from the main blades. Something like 7 degrees of pitch. Next you have to hover it but since it is in rate mode it might be a bit difficult so if you have trouble controlling the heli in nose in or side in don't try it yourself.

If the heli drifts around in a stable hover then you would either have to increase or decrease the tail pitch. You do this by lengthening or shortening the tail control link(by turning the link in or out).

I'll repeat though that this is not a cause for blowout.
__________________
Trex 450 Pro 3xDS410M + MKS8910A+, Align FBL head w/Microbeast, CC 45 [email protected] 3400rpm(max timing, outrunner mode), Scorpion 2221-8 on 14t, Edge FBL main and tail, CF boom, CC BEC @ 6V
airjawed is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-28-2011, 08:17 AM   #100 (permalink)
Registered Users
 

Join Date: Mar 2010
Default

Yeah I did all that and it hovers just fine in rate mode in idle up. Then I programed the gain in hh mode. My only issue now is that the gain where my tail stops wagging in hh mode is 55% (gyro menu dx6i) and that's low I think. I have not done the delay setting so delay is at 0 but the tail seam to be solid there. But I think 55%is to low. WHAT U THINK?

And u keep on saying blow out. What does that mean?
carlocivicsi is offline        Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply




Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the HeliFreak forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your REAL and WORKING email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself. Use a real email address or you will not be granted access to the site. Thank you.
Email Address:
Location
Where do you live? ie: Country, State, City or General Geographic Location please.
Name and Lastname
Enter name and last name here. (This information is not shown to the general public. Optional)
Helicopter #1
Enter Helicopter #1 type and equipment.
Helicopter #2
Enter Helicopter #2 type and equipment.
Helicopter #3
Enter Helicopter #3 type and equipment.
Helicopter #4
Enter Helicopter #4 type and equipment.

Log-in


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




Copyright © Website Acquisitions Inc. All rights reserved.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2021 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1