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AP and Scale Discussions for Scale, Multi-blade and AP applications using CSM Cyclock, Helitronix Multi-mixer, Spartan AP2000i, Firmtronix, Digimix-3.


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Old 01-13-2007, 01:43 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Hey Mark,

is it possible to use the IR sensor and 2 gyros with the AP2000i so you could be flybarless and stabilized with the IR? Or do you just tweak the virtual flybar settings so that you have the equivalent of 10lbs weights on a flybar? :mrgreen:

I may go to the virtual bar sooner than I thought. I'm re-building a Logo 10 that I bought off a fellow freak. I discovered that he didn't use thread lock consistently, so tonight I was removing parts and applying thread lock. Well, I managed to brake one of the balls off in the swash! I've been trying to drill it out, but no luck! Looks like I go flybarless so I don't need that ball or order a new swash at $65!
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Old 01-13-2007, 06:11 AM   #22 (permalink)
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I've been trying to drill it out, but no luck!
Probably the only thing that had thread lock, right? Sounds like my kind of luck.

Anyhow, going flybarless with IR is exactly what I'm doing. More for AP than 3D reasons but I'm trying it out on my R50 just to see how it will perform. Once I've got it all figured out, I'll go ahead and make the switch on my gasser.
I can't give too many details on tweaking because I've yet to fly it. But, Angelos tells me to start with the 2 gyros in non-HH at a low gain setting and adjust from there for the best feel. I'll let you know what that is when I figure it out
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Old 01-13-2007, 12:38 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Probably the only thing that had thread lock, right? Sounds like my kind of luck.
How did you know?

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I can't give too many details on tweaking because I've yet to fly it. But, Angelos tells me to start with the 2 gyros in non-HH at a low gain setting and adjust from there for the best feel. I'll let you know what that is when I figure it out
Yes, keep me posted. So do the gyros go between the RX and the AP2000i? Which gyros are you using?

I'm going to order the new head and some gyros now. It is either that or a new swash plate.

Edit: parts for flybarless head are on the way from Esprit Model. Now I just need the AP2000i to get here, and 2 gyros, and lots of tweaking...
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Old 01-13-2007, 05:03 PM   #24 (permalink)
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I'm using 401's just because I was able to pick em up gently used. You don't need the remote gyro gain and HH is not used so you don't have to pick a gyro based on HH ability.

The gyros do go between the rx and AP2000i. I've got the install done. I didn't get to the IR sensor yet but that isn't really important at this time. I already know that part works . Weather was crappy here today so I'll try to get in the air tomorrow.
I have to admit, it's pretty cool tilting the heli and watching the swash try to resist the movements
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Old 01-13-2007, 05:16 PM   #25 (permalink)
 

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from everything I read about using gyro for stability, they actually think older rates gyro are better because they almost act like they have histerisis built in. the key is low gain on newer gyro. it is almost too sensitive I guess. sounds like a fun project.
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Old 01-13-2007, 05:41 PM   #26 (permalink)
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from everything I read about using gyro for stability, they actually think older rates gyro are better because they almost act like they have histerisis built in. the key is low gain on newer gyro. it is almost too sensitive I guess. sounds like a fun project.
Yes rate mode works best because the frybar is in effect gyro wheel mechanically mixed with the swash. All you do is replace the mechanical gyro with an electronic one. Using heading hold gyro will not give the same feel.

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Weather was crappy here today so I'll try to get in the air tomorrow.
I am also waiting for some decent weather to test fly my latest project but has been around 30MHP winds all week. It is forecasted 7MHP for tomorrow early morning and I might get my chance. After several months of work, countless late nights and hundreds of hours of simulation it will go in the air for the first time.

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Old 01-14-2007, 05:37 AM   #27 (permalink)
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I am also waiting for some decent weather to test fly my latest project but has been around 30MHP winds all week. It is forecasted 7MHP for tomorrow early morning and I might get my chance. After several months of work, countless late nights and hundreds of hours of simulation it will go in the air for the first time.
Secret projects? Ah Ha! Gonna share? I did! :wink:
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Old 01-14-2007, 10:46 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Got 2 quick flights on it(won't quit raining for more than a few minutes).

First flight oscillations were a bit much. I dropped the gyro gain a bit but it was still oscillating. Rain started again

Just flew it again with gain cut back and some delay on the gyros. Oscillation is almost nonexistant now. I just started to get to the blade tracking when the rain started again.

Considering the blade tracking and intense vibe in the tx it did fly very well. I think I've got a bit much cyclic pitch on it. It's very lively. With the IR stabilization on it I think it would help dampen that. Cyclic response is nearly instant. I'm surprised more skilled 3D guys haven't done this already. I would think maneuvers would become more crisp.

Hopefully the weather this week will allow for some dialing in of the gyros and I'll get the stabilization going. Getting past the first flight gitters would help, too
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Old 01-14-2007, 12:12 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Yeah, Angelos, spill it! I'm guessing it is the inertial sensors for the AP-2000i.

Mark, what do you have the 401 gain set to right now? Can you get it low enough that it will be stable in an AP/AV configuration? I agree, the 3D guys will love the "crisp" cyclics, but that's kinda the opposite of what we are looking for, right?

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Old 01-14-2007, 12:14 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Mark,
If you notice on a stock (flybar equipped) Raptor, the swashplate travels up/down much larger distance that ball link of the blade grip. The mechanical mixer is made to scale down the pilots controls. Just like collective the pitch/roll will also be more sensitive and very likely this is why you need to lower the gyro gain so much. I suggest that you make the servo arms shorter to reduce the overall control.Increasing the delay on the GY401 should also help since cyclic response and the swash servos are slower than the tail counterparts.

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Old 01-14-2007, 12:30 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Flight 3 with 75% delay and 0% gain was much better. I was just thinking the same thing about the servo arms. Makes perfect sense. You can get a twitchy tail when the throw is too long.

In any case, even with my setup being off, it was still flying well. I got the tracking close and was about to try a few rolls when the rotten rain started up again. I'm thinking of offering my services in drought regions. Every time I take the heli out it rains again.
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Old 01-14-2007, 12:33 PM   #32 (permalink)
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He's still not spilling, is he...

Makes sense, regarding the throws, etc. I know on the Logos, using the V-Stab system, you need to move the balls on the servo arms in to the closest hole.

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Old 01-14-2007, 12:51 PM   #33 (permalink)
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I'm going to move the ail.and ele. to the inner holes. On the 3rd hole out, the servo can't be moving more that 15 degrees and that's with 10 degrees on the cyclic pitch throws. Doesn't take much movement to generate an oscillation with my current setup.

At least I know it's only going to get better!
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Old 01-14-2007, 02:05 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Quote:
Yeah, Angelos, spill it!
Quote:
He's still not spilling, is he...
The problem with spreading the news too soon is that you get hundreds of emails asking when they can buy it. However after today’s tremendous success I am too excited to keep it secret any more. Over the last few months I’ve been developing a competition grade tail gyro. The first flight turned out much better than we expected but my limited piloting skills did not allow me to push the gyro to its limits. I can do some basic stuff like flips, rolls, fast backwards flight and it performed flawlessly. It is amazing how the helicopter physics simulation matched the real life flight characteristics. Anyhow, in the next few weeks I will ask some experts to test fly it but I am confident we have achieved what we were aiming for.

Video: Solid tail in full pitch climb with Raptor 50. (3.1MB) http://www.spartan-rc.com/pub/rr_pos...t_070114_1.wmv


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Old 01-14-2007, 02:13 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Very cool. What's the target price?

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Old 01-14-2007, 04:00 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Bummer...would have been cooler to have 'em on my flybarless conversion rather than the 401s. Oh well, maybe I'll have some gently used 401s for sale shortly
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Old 01-14-2007, 07:13 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Very cool. Smile What's the target price?
It has to be competitive so we are aiming at 106-110 GBP (+VAT charged in Europe only).

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Old 01-14-2007, 07:51 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Heres a good way to test gyros , This will show the immediate difference between a 401 and 611 for example:

Go real (real) high into a stall turn and on the way down after some speed has been gathered directly vertical do a one turn slow piro. See if the piro ratation speed is consistent with the wind and against it.
Do piro flips and see if the piro rotation speed is consistent as power is pumped and released throughout the flip.

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Old 01-14-2007, 07:59 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Greg, you are absolutely right. To generalise, we are looking for constant angular velocity throughout a full turn…
1. With strong horizontal wind speed. (like fast flight)
2. With rapidly changing collective. (chaos/ piro flips)

We have a radio telemetry module linked to laptop and we can observe live data from helicopter as it spins. Even better our gyro can provide the angular velocity data when another gyro is in control… thus we can compare how ours is performing compared to the big names.
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Old 01-14-2007, 08:03 PM   #40 (permalink)
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thus we can compare how ours is performing compared to the big names
Ya gotta love that
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