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Old 03-09-2011, 01:14 PM   #41 (permalink)
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+1 Sutty. During climb-outs with zero cyclic, it would be reasonable to expect that the MB should counter any rolls. And yet, consider Param A. There is something going on during climb outs in those FBL controllers that seems to fade the swash back to whatever you dialed in as "level", overriding the control loop in the meantime. Same happens on the 3G.

As for the high and low leveling, I am yet to understand its significance myself. Using 3 of the same servos and 3 push rods of identical length, how far can you possibly be out by? Unless you got some really shoddy servos.

There was a thread on this only a couple of days back. OP complained that the feature was lacking on the MB. When challenged to review his mechanical setup, he resolved his problem pretty quickly.
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Old 03-09-2011, 01:23 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie2893 View Post
As for the high and low leveling, I am yet to understand its significance myself. Using 3 of the same servos and 3 push rods of identical length, how far can you possibly be out by? Unless you got some really shoddy servos.
I have a Trex700N with BLS451 servos, so that should be good enough?
but because is it a push pull linkage you get a lot more chance of having interaction. And it isnt much at most 0.5mm of play between swash leveller and swash but every interaction has its influence.
Why does the vbar and CGY750 have the ability to level at low and high stick, because its useless?

The point is that a relatively high frequent disturbance as interaction has definitily influence on the flight characteristics.
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Old 03-09-2011, 02:08 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by djamgils View Post
[with] push pull linkage you get a lot more chance of having interaction.
You are probably right. I just don't understand. Why would push-pull make matters worse?
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Old 03-09-2011, 03:56 PM   #44 (permalink)
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I don't think it is a question of whether or not having the ability to level the swash at high or low is better or not....it is better. But is it worth it? Will you notice anything in flight?

These days servos are better quality and must be for FBL... so leveling isn't needed as much....

But if you have older analog servos and a poor mechanical setup then yes...you should have high and low leveling. The Vbar allows analog servos as well....is this a feature that makes it better FBL?
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Old 03-09-2011, 04:09 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by airjawed View Post
Helico-pteron : I saw that on the beastx forum. I've experimented with putting in a high value... and what this does is make the slider move dramatically in one direction vs the other. Either I will need to adjust the asymmetry until left and right piro stops are equal or I'll adjust the asymmetry until it feels solid and even by hand(no main blades on). If anyone has ideas I'd love to hear!
I have no other info and have no plans to mess with it.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

The MB is superb as is on my machine and I have no plans to start experimenting.

To me, this software is useless. It should have been a complete set up interface or nothing at all. For them to come out with a PC interface with a few obscure settings was a waste of time. I would have much rather had that time spent on a gov option.

TJMHO
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Old 03-09-2011, 04:32 PM   #46 (permalink)
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I would imagine this was just a preliminary software, hopefully a full one will come out as expected soon
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Old 03-09-2011, 05:00 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andyzboy View Post
I would imagine this was just a preliminary software, hopefully a full one will come out as expected soon
Yes, I believe it will be expanded upon. But I chose the MB over all others primarily because I didn't need a PC to set it up or tweak it. I hope the sticks and button always remain an option regardless of how far they go with the software.
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Old 03-09-2011, 05:31 PM   #48 (permalink)
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I would be very surprised if they disabled the led programming option, the hardware is there and it's so popular to many for that. If they disable it in a future update you could always just not update it.
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Old 03-09-2011, 05:34 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helico-pteron View Post
I have no other info and have no plans to mess with it.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

The MB is superb as is on my machine and I have no plans to start experimenting.

To me, this software is useless. It should have been a complete set up interface or nothing at all. For them to come out with a PC interface with a few obscure settings was a waste of time. I would have much rather had that time spent on a gov option.

TJMHO
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob O View Post
Yes, I believe it will be expanded upon. But I chose the MB over all others primarily because I didn't need a PC to set it up or tweak it. I hope the sticks and button always remain an option regardless of how far they go with the software.
+1000
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Old 03-10-2011, 02:53 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ollie2893 View Post
You are probably right. I just don't understand. Why would push-pull make matters worse?
normally you have
-servo horn perpendicular to linkage
-correct linkage length from horn to swash

but with push pull you have
-servo horn parallel to next lever
-equal length of push pull linkage
-correct length of lever to swash

so with push pull there are more tolerances involved in the chain and thus more chance for interaction
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Old 03-10-2011, 05:03 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djamgils View Post
-servo horn parallel to next lever
-equal length of push pull linkage
-correct length of lever to swash
And you think it essential, or at least desirable, to have a feature in the FBL controller to compensate for you getting any of these wrong? Cool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by airjawed
These days servos are better quality ... so leveling isn't needed
+1
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Old 03-10-2011, 05:14 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by airjawed View Post
Either I will need to adjust the asymmetry until left and right piro stops are equal or I'll adjust the asymmetry until it feels solid and even by hand(no main blades on). If anyone has ideas I'd love to hear!
Sorry, what problem are you trying to fix? Or are you just irresistibly attracted to this new parameter input (in which case I would strongly counsel that you never buy a CGY750).
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Old 03-10-2011, 06:31 AM   #53 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie2893 View Post
Sorry, what problem are you trying to fix? Or are you just irresistibly attracted to this new parameter input (in which case I would strongly counsel that you never buy a CGY750).
Parameters are there for a reason, so yes I am irresistibly drawn to it! I know what the asymmetry does on the bench. Question I have is how to tune this parameter in the air. I am not really into the idea of random trial and error.

I could just leave it alone and actually at this moment it is set to zero. But I will probably adjust this so that my left and right piro stops are exactly the same. I did a rate mode hover setup and have my revomix done already(I actually used a 'lazy susan' for this). Most anyone would say that it is near perfect already...but why not make it even better if it is possible. Not loosing any sleep over it but I will make it better when I learn exactly how to set this parameter.

I would love to buy the CG750 by the way. I love adjustability. As long as the manual or some set of instructions details how to use the settings properly then the party is on! The microbeast manual and website do an excellent job of explaining things and this is part of its success. I didn't get the MB because of its simple setup. I got it because of its price and rave reviews.
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Old 03-10-2011, 06:36 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ollie2893 View Post
And you think it essential, or at least desirable, to have a feature in the FBL controller to compensate for you getting any of these wrong? Cool.
It seems that you are implying I am not capable of setting up a heli. maybe I am, but I dont think you are right in that matter. Perhaps I am just more demanding about my setup.
But either way it would be nice to have the feature available imho.

It just is impossible to setup the mechanics perfectly every time all the time. So when you get to a certain acceptable mechanical setup you can iron out all the last imperfections with the software.
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Old 03-10-2011, 07:11 AM   #55 (permalink)
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I will probably adjust this so that my left and right piro stops are exactly the same.
I have a hunch what that parameter might be about. If right, then it will do little to improve stops. Or do you mean piro rates c/w v cc/w? Either way, I had thought you will likely have more joy addressing any imperfections you might perceive in your tail performance into and out of piros with Param D and Pot #3. Good luck.

And, yes, you just gonna love the 750. 200 settings to knock yourself out with. That forum is guaranteed to buzz forever
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Old 03-10-2011, 07:28 AM   #56 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie2893 View Post
I have a hunch what that parameter might be about. If right, then it will do little to improve stops. Or do you mean piro rates c/w v cc/w? Either way, I had thought you will likely have more joy addressing any imperfections you might perceive in your tail performance into and out of piros with Param D and Pot #3. Good luck.

And, yes, you just gonna love the 750. 200 settings to knock yourself out with. That forum is guaranteed to buzz forever
About piro stop behavior, I agree with you: D point - parameter menu and Pot. 3.
About the rest: with all my respect, maybe you should be a little more positive
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Old 03-10-2011, 08:40 AM   #57 (permalink)
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maybe you should be a little more positive
I don't think you understand. I originally went FBL with Align's 3G. That was quickly replaced with the MB - 'nough said. My 600 now sits mid-air for 20-30secs with zero cyclic input, upright or inverted. The (stock) tail's rock solid. It does not blow out during pitch pumps, does not wag - just sweet. I could not be happier.

I know that you are also over on the BeastX forum. Did you read the PC s/w threads over there? The vitriol thrown at that little company? And for what? What features is it that people are missing on the MB that would warrant such abuse?

And so I read here, for example, that high and low swash leveling is a big deal. Oh really, I challenge. Well, readers can make up their own minds of how important that is from the answers posted.

I fly EP so don't actually have great problems with my tail. But I can see that NP pilots will benefit from the Revomix. And the Phasing Angle is clearly essential for most scale pilots. That these parameters are only exposed by the PC is what led me to pick up the CGY750 manual - and my eyes glazed over. Exposing every little parameter of the complex stabilization algorithm to a bunch of (necessarily, I'd argue) ignorant users, as Futaba does, is just asking for trouble (*). I submit to you that the "tail asymmetry" parameter debated here is a perfect case in point. It is clearly so esoteric an input to the calculation that it even eluded Stefan to explain it...

(*) To be fair to Futaba, they clearly expect (hope?) that most users will never (have to) venture anywhere near their "expert mode". But we both know better, don't we?
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Old 03-10-2011, 10:27 AM   #58 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by egicar View Post
About piro stop behavior, I agree with you: D point - parameter menu and Pot. 3.
About the rest: with all my respect, maybe you should be a little more positive
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I've already addressed the stop behavior with the para D and pot 3. However there are differences between left vs right.

Having arbitrarily entered a high asymmetry value I can clearly see that when I move the nose left it will move the slider a lot...but when I move nose right the slider moves a little. So my hunch about this parameter is correct. It addresses the difference in performance you see between left and right tail thrust. Part of the difference coming from main rotor torque and part of it coming from the idea that the tail blades will generally have about 6-8 degrees at hover(blades do not have linear performance curves).

So long story short.... I have always been able to feel the difference between CW vs CCW moves(on every heli I have flown). This parameter would help with this IMO. My question really is just how would I go about setting it correctly and what would I look for if this was a high or low value?

Since this thread is about the Micro Settings I am posting my questions about asymmetry setting here. I'm open to suggestions and educated answers.
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Old 03-10-2011, 10:58 AM   #59 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie2893 View Post
I don't think you understand. I originally went FBL with Align's 3G. That was quickly replaced with the MB - 'nough said. My 600 now sits mid-air for 20-30secs with zero cyclic input, upright or inverted. The (stock) tail's rock solid. It does not blow out during pitch pumps, does not wag - just sweet. I could not be happier.

I know that you are also over on the BeastX forum. Did you read the PC s/w threads over there? The vitriol thrown at that little company? And for what? What features is it that people are missing on the MB that would warrant such abuse?

And so I read here, for example, that high and low swash leveling is a big deal. Oh really, I challenge. Well, readers can make up their own minds of how important that is from the answers posted.

I fly EP so don't actually have great problems with my tail. But I can see that NP pilots will benefit from the Revomix. And the Phasing Angle is clearly essential for most scale pilots. That these parameters are only exposed by the PC is what led me to pick up the CGY750 manual - and my eyes glazed over. Exposing every little parameter of the complex stabilization algorithm to a bunch of (necessarily, I'd argue) ignorant users, as Futaba does, is just asking for trouble (*). I submit to you that the "tail asymmetry" parameter debated here is a perfect case in point. It is clearly so esoteric an input to the calculation that it even eluded Stefan to explain it...

(*) To be fair to Futaba, they clearly expect (hope?) that most users will never (have to) venture anywhere near their "expert mode". But we both know better, don't we?
OK, you are right about certain "issues-non issues", like the high/low swash leveling.
Stefan already said that the MB corrects itself these little problems, but many of us don't read (the manual as well ). I translated the manual in Italian, so I have read it and I have read many posts here and on BeastX forum and I opened a thread on the MB on Baronerosso (103.381 views and 2.501 posts at this moment).
I agree with you: one of the MB's advantages is the easy setup. It can work perfectly without any other PC setup, but not shock me if some parameters must be set via PC.

What is asymmetry compensation?
Stafan wrote:
Asymmetry is a compensation function if the rudder moves unequally in both directions (there are no negative values since the value depends also on the setting for the main rotor torque). Under normal circumstances it should not be necessary to use this - default is 0.

What is revomix?
Stefan wrote:
When using the RevoMIX the tail rotor must compensate load of the main rotor system. So on a helicopter with clockwise turning main rotor therefore if you enter pitch (both positive and negative!) the tail rotor must turn to the right. This also applies to cyclic movements of roll and pitch independently of the direction. Whenever torque is built up the tail rotor must compensate with anti torque. At 0 pitch of the tail rotor makes the least deflection.
Experience has shown that a ratio of 1:2 between cyclic and collective pitch is a good guide. For example 15 cyclic and 30 collective Pitch. Then slowly increase to the optimum values. This presupposes that the tail rotor (sensitivity and heading lock proportion) are were adjusted to the optimum extent before. The RevoMIX is only an aid to improve the performance of the tail gyro for example when the tail rotor system is slightly undersized but not to conceal a poor control at all (if without RevoMix when giving pitch the tail turns away desperately you should check the mechanics and tail gyro adjustment instead of trying to compensate with an extremely high RevoMIX value).

I would say that the MB description on Freakware is:

MICROBEAST has an aluminum composite design casing. Its slight dimensions
allow it to be installed in practically any model helicopter.
MICROBEAST can be installed horizontally as well as vertically.

The sensory system is based on the newest MEMS technology. Software
with sophisticated sensor data processing makes installation in electrical
& nitro model helicopters possible.

With an optional adapter cable, MICROBEAST can also be utilized solely
as a tail gyro. This is recommended especially for whoever is switching
from the conventional paddle system and wants to slowly approach the
RIGID operation with the 3 axle solution (3G-Gyro Mode).

The well-thought-out and easy setup goes smoothly with no need of an
expensive programming box or computer. This makes it easy to still change
a number of settings even at the airfi eld.

Moreover MICROBEAST′s integrated swashplate mixer enables the use
of simple remote control systems which do not have their own swashplate
mixing (NO-MIX).

MICROBEAST is able to process many types of sum signals (PPM / S-BUS
/ Spektrum). With the optional Spektrum Satellite Adapter, installation in
indoor model helicopters is also possible without a great number of
wires.

Updates and advanced setup possibilities (Setups) can be done comfortably
with the optional USB interface „USB2SYS" via the BEASTLINK
interface. Software for Windows & Mac can be downloaded free at
www.BEASTX.com

So, a PC software is a part of the product ... you agree?
Not essential, but ... payed.

But, you know, we are all "helifreaks" ...

I love the scientific minds and I think that our hobby can develope them, but, with all my respect, you sholud be more patient

With friendship,
Egidio
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Old 03-10-2011, 12:43 PM   #60 (permalink)
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My understanding is that high and low swash leveling is just the same concept as revo mix. You can wait for the heli to move in an undesired way and "then" let the gyros correct. We have been flying like this since the days of the first heading hold gyros. What is better is that since the inception of FBL, the gyro knows about collective movements and can anticipate the tail "before" the tail gyro senses any movement. This is better and that's why all units have incorporated revo mix, an old school tool that is still in Tx menus.

High and low swash leveling is just the same. If up and down swash are crooked the gyros are going to compensate for deviations in high and low pitch movements, but it will always be better if it is flying straight in the first place. The less you make the FBL unit work the better. In extreme cases like the dreaded 3G, even after exhausting setup of FBL parameters, you get bobbing and shakes all around from poor sensors catching late to wrong mechanically setup helis.

I like the ease of use of the no PC approach of the MB, but I miss the precise setup of a computer. I mean, you can level the swash ok "if you use a swash leveling tool", but Parameter A in Paramenters menu you never get right and if you do you can not repeat that setup, it's just by eyesight. Actually I never understood why you have to manually compensate for uneven climbs and descents (or level hover) on a FBL unit, this is unique to the MBX. A level swash at 0 and preferably a level swash at high and low should be enough, right?
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