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Old 06-02-2015, 01:01 PM   #661 (permalink)
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Hi Denis

I wouldn't recommend squeezing the pins on a 600, and hoping it will stay there. It will help, for sure, and I think I did that too, a little, but to answer your question I did not tap it with a real tap. I just made sure I drilled a hole small enough, and then I tapped it with the grub screw itself. Started one size too small, and realised it would never go in, then went up one drill size. You need a hole that is the size of the bottom of the threads, which you will have to guess. If it's a 3mm grub screw, then 2.5 would be good I should think, but compare them side by side. If you have some scrap ally of similar thickness, give it a trial.

I did it as though it were a real tap though, by making sure I was perfectly square, and then turning in a 1/4 turn, maybe a half, and then backing out, rinse and repeat, until I could screw it right though. I then slid it onto the shaft, and used the torque gauge in my hand to determine if I thought I could torque it up enough to be a good firm grip on the shaft, which I could.

I made sure that I didn't overtighten, since I didn't want to strip, and made sure the screw was clean, and used a nice amount of blue locktite. Still pretty damned tight though. You'll be able to tell if it's good, I could.

Because the pins are still in, all it has to do is hold it at the right height. The driving action comes from the pins, so it doesn't have to be like other areas on the heli.

With regard to the height, it gets positioned automatically. When you set your link lengths for the swash to be roughly mid position on the shaft, between the head and the base, for your 0 pitch, it then sits above the swash such that the driving arms to the swash balls sit at 90 degrees.

Not that it matters, as long as you get good free movement, and no binding, then all will be well, even if there is some angle. With mine, both times I've done it, there was no problem positioning it and still having enough room for the swash to move for full collective range.

If it restricts the swash from going up, either grind a bit off the bottom, alter your link lengths, so the long links are longer above the swash, and your short links below are shorter, or just settle for the arms at a little angle at 0 pitch. As long as it isn't way off you shouldn't run into issues with the angles becoming too great. Don't forget all it does is drive the swash, to keep the long links phased correctly.

As for overtightening the bolts into the feathering shaft, no I don't think you could. Yes, technically you can over tighten the screw, such that it might fail prematurely, and I've read reports, but for all intents and purposes, I don't think with our allen key drivers we can easily get there. I used to tighten them until my hands hurt. Now I'm a little more gentle, as I've started to trust the locktite, but they're always nipped up pretty damned tight, and never backed off any.

In my opinion, if something is tight, when you tighten those bolts down, then it is either wrongly assembled, or something is out of tolerance or is faulty.

When did you ever have a problem on any other heli tightening those down? I know I never have, and if I had to back them off, locktite or not, I would not be comfortable.

Just my thoughts of course.

Cheers

Sutty
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Old 06-02-2015, 04:41 PM   #662 (permalink)
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Cheers Guys

The benefit of experience and bouncing ideas around always helps. Don't think I could bend these pins even if I tried. Maybe pinch them a little, but would want a solution I can have more confidence in.

Appreciate the list of tips Sutty. I think that finalises my preparations for the FBL mod. Like you, I will only need new long link rods and long balls for the grips, and thankfully should only cost around 10-15.

You didn't actually mention if you used a hand drill or bench press to actually drill the hole through though Wondering if I need to be that precise drilling the hole at 90. Thanks to my day job, I've got a set of ti.drill bits from 1mm to 10mm in 0.5mm increments and a set of calipers. I'll be alright with sizing the hole and got plenty of spare grub screws.

Your right in pointing out the bottom of the WOB maybe a little long, so I may need to grind it back. This is what I been pondering the last few days, what to do exactly with this, the mixing/radius arms and driving the swash.

It appears that (I've powered up and undone links to check this) to keep the washout arms at 90, the bottom of the washout will be too low for the swashplate to get full range of movement for collective pitch. So your right in saying I can cut the bottom off the washout base to allow more room for the swash to move. But don't think my tools are precise enough to do a neat job.

I've also considered inverting the washout base, but then the holes for the mixing arms end up on the wrong side. So I looked at if it was possible to use the longer side of the mixing arm, and cut the shorter side off, but there is a different size/type of hole, so that is not a viable option. So then I realised I could also move the radius arms over, but then they will be pulling the upper swash round, instead of driving it, which I thought is the aim. Can't seem to find anywhere if that matters. Anyone here know if it matters or not?
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Old 06-02-2015, 05:50 PM   #663 (permalink)
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I can't even remember how I did it Denis. I know that if it isn't small work I will often just drill it in the vice, as I am confident in my ability to get things square, so there's a good chance I'd have done it by hand. With your job I know that you will have a very good eye for square too, so I don't think you'll have any issue just drilling it by hand, as long as you have a vice to hold the work piece still whilst you do it. That size is right on my limit for what I would call small, and it's when it's small that I need the fine control that the bench press drill affords me, but I honestly don't think I would have used it for that. Still, not sure though.

Have you done a trial fit for clearance? I think you might be surprised how little space you need for full collective range.

As for the long arm, short arm side, that was exacxtly what I was refering to when I said consider doing it differently to me. I used the short side, but I think it might be better to use the long side, reaching across from beyond the middle, like they would work anyway. It shouldn't change the sizes.

I'm sure that is what my 550 looks like, bear with me, and I'll get shots.
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Old 06-02-2015, 06:09 PM   #664 (permalink)
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Here is the 600, where I used the short side. I think this was a poor choice, though it does work.



Here is the 550, where this is the long side, reaching across. This gives more travel, and less severe angles, and this is the way I should have done it.



The thing is, this is a real one, and it is exactly the same as the long portion of the full arm, and I mean exactly. It is as though they have either used the same drawings, or they have really machined off the short end of a whole bunch of stock they had left, and painted it all black afterwards.

Also, look at how near they go to the bottom of the head. Don't forget you can go right up to that. No clearance is necessary, as it doesn't have to move.

Do these help any?
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Old 06-02-2015, 06:14 PM   #665 (permalink)
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Oh, and can't for the life of me see any reason why it would matter if it pushes, pulls, or drives it around anyway it can. All it does is keep the long link in line with the main shaft, by driving around the easy spinning upper swash, which would have a tendency to want to be going around anyway.
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Old 06-02-2015, 06:54 PM   #666 (permalink)
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Yeah that's exactly what I'm talking about. Those are a great help.

The problem I think I got is, that if I invert the washout to give more clearance and get the hole on the other side, I can't use the long side of the arms I got, because the hole that goes through the long side is different, and I can't fit the Radius arm to that side. So I could add the arms you got on the 550 to my shopping list, if pushing/driving the swash is that important. Which I think I can get away with too.

My guess on swash movement would be, that the geometry of the kasama head is different to the align, and it has the extra set of mixing arms on the blade grips. So mine may need more swash movement than yours, to generate the same amount of grip movement. I'll definitely want to try and invert the washout base (to avoid cutting/grinding) and consider buying the longer arms if I need to.

I'm hoping that when I come to do the mod, I'll be removing the extra set of mixing arms, so the geometry will change and may need less swash movement when it comes to adding the FBL unit. Won't find that out till I'm ready to do setup, so I won't cut the washout mixing arms till I'm happy with with that! But that is the last peice of the puzzle solved, and I can now say I know how I'm going to do it
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Old 06-04-2015, 02:02 PM   #667 (permalink)
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Let the games begin!
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Old 06-05-2015, 05:06 AM   #668 (permalink)
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Cheers Chad! Got about 10 days to go till I get my next little windfall. So I got to sit tight and wait for that. Hmmmm...better decide 100% which FBL unit I'm going for, and see if the offer is still on the vortex. Tempted by the VBar Neo as it has an extra sensor unit, allegedly, to improve performance with vibes.

My trigger finger is very itchy!! I've even spotted some of the HN6119 WOB arms Sutty and I discussed earlier, at half the normal price. Hoping it's a mistake on the website and I'll get my order in before they run out of stock, re-order and notice the error! 6 better than 13.50, but the stock indicator is on yellow already!!

Might get some time today to do a test spool up of the 600, if I finish work early enough. Just checking my old nitro and flight pack are still good, oh and I'll see if resizing the balls has made any difference, but might be hard to tell in the garden!!

I've got to put the head back together, as I pulled it apart to service the bearings in the grips. But, no one answered my question in the kasama forum about whether to oil or grease them, so I'll just oil them as per bobs vid and pop them back on for the test. Be n a long time coming!!
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Old 06-05-2015, 01:58 PM   #669 (permalink)
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Hope you do get chance Denis. I'm still stuck working, so Friday has been wasted from a heli point of view for me. Oh well, it doesn't happen often.

Cheers

Sutty
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Old 06-05-2015, 05:38 PM   #670 (permalink)
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Sadly didn't get back early enough. Spent too long working in a hot, humid bathroom splashing chemicals about. Just chilled out as it's been a long week! 1 more day in work and should get a few days off then
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Old 06-07-2015, 10:07 AM   #671 (permalink)
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Got the day off, so making some good progress towards the test.

Now got to work next week, so not got the few days off I wanted, but need the money anyway whilst I wait for the FBL purchases.

I was getting my head back together this morning and decided to remove the 2 groove Damper support from inside the main rotor block, clean them, re-oil and re-insert. As I popped the first one out I didn't notice which way it was, but noted they are shaped like a flange bearing. Anyway, the second one I thought, I better take note, which way round they were. So, flanged side on the inside I found. Then I thought, I would check it to the exploded diagram, and it turns out that they, or at least one of them, are the wrong way round.

So I got the head back together, and it doesn't feel any smoother than it did before I applied the new lube, if anything it's a little stiffer, when I try to move the grips. Anyway, the flybar is still fairly loose, and I think it's good enough to try. Some conflicting results, but main aim for today is check the Nitro is still good.

As I checked my starter, there is a converter lead for Deans to XT60, and both connections had gone dry at the Deans end, so I'm just making a new one of those before I fill her up and see what happens. Will definately get this on cam, so I can study the cyclic action later. Hope it doesn't turn into a disaster!
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Old 06-07-2015, 03:27 PM   #672 (permalink)
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1st attempt at re-making the adaptor cable failed. Think I melted the Deans connector a little, so not making a connection. Couldn't finish the 2nd attempt as I run out of solder
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Old 06-09-2015, 04:35 PM   #673 (permalink)
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Hope to get some solder tomorrow if I finish early enough. Good weather forecast Thurs/Friday, so re-scheduled the spool up test for then. Got jack this weekend, but next weekend is the last one at the club, so still hoping to make it for that weekend. The guys have found a new site, so glad there will be a new place to join and a little closer to home for me.

Decided to make use of the 4.75mm sizing tool I ordered in error, as it fitted the align links on the lower part of the kasama head. Noticed the AIL/PIT links from swash to push/pull levers were on the stiff side too, so I've sized a few more links and it seems to have taken some load off the servos. Definitely less buzzing, as I move the cyclic.

Nothing else to do now!! Ready for another maiden!!
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Old 06-09-2015, 04:46 PM   #674 (permalink)
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Well I managed to get out both yesterday and today after work. I've stopped travelling away for work each week now, so I'm always at home. Good job too, otherwise I would have been away for the first nice days for ages. Hope it does stay good for a few days now.

Good luck with the tests.
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Old 06-09-2015, 10:29 PM   #675 (permalink)
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Yeah buddy! I hope all goes well.
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Old 06-10-2015, 03:50 PM   #676 (permalink)
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Cheers guys! Solder acquired, didn't finish the adaptor lead, just changed the connector on the starter, had it in pieces to check the wiring anyway

So...Tomorrow's gonna be the day!! Bit of work to do, but just finishing up. So there'll be gaps in between when I'll get the 450 packs charged up from storage, hopefully nip out with that, and try the 600 somewhere in between. Got use of car for next few days, and weather is good. So must make the most of it!!
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Old 06-11-2015, 08:06 AM   #677 (permalink)
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Good news She flies again

Only done a little hop in the garden, and noticed my engine temp racing up, so I thought, it could be lean and I better check on what the normal running temp should be. Max I reached was 173C!

Had a few stalls on starting up, then spooling up, but it started easily enough. Left it to idel for a minute, waiting for engine temp to go up a bit and tweaking the throttle on the trim switch. Once I got up in the air (to about 4ft) I managed a little push on cyclic and a collective pitch pump, before I brought it back down with a quick auto from about 2ft. The AIL and ELEV felt nice and responsive, but jury is out on the collective pitch, probably because I wasn't in idel up mode, which makes a difference on engine/throttle response. I'll maybe add a drop of oil to the main shaft around the WOB and swash.

Pleased for now the nitro is still good, and time will tell how the flight pack holds up. Noticed when charging the voltage jumped, so thats showing some signs of IR.

Will get a vid of the uploaded later
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Old 06-11-2015, 10:18 AM   #678 (permalink)
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Default It didn't last long!!!

Just waiting for the 450 packs to finish, and decided I would have another go on the 600, to see if I could determine if the collective was ok.

I checked temps, and think it's just the telemetry sensor maybe not placed right, and could be picking up radiant heat from the exhaust pipe. The bottom plate felt ok after I landed, so will try and re-route the sensor wire to see if that sorts that issue out. 2nd flight said it got to 537C!!

So, I managed to get into idel up 1 mode this time, and pitch pump again to test the collective pitch. It still seemed slow to respond. I would say better than I remember, it felt like it was completely locking up before, but now, just very slow to respond. In the confines of the garden, it just eats up too much room too quickly, and makes me too nervous! Got into trouble, as it jumped up a bit high, then it came down too quick, and it went up again but too quickly. I stayed calm enough to hit TH and auto'd down from about 8ft, instead of getting into too much of a panic!

So, I calmed my nerves and went to try again. As I spooled up, I got light on the skids. As soon as I took off it started a slow piro, so I was on TH again as quick as lightning, and auto'd it from about 6", as it came round 360 degree's. Seems my tail drive pulley and crown gear on the front end of the TT have stripped a few teeth Got a spare gear for the TT, but will have to add a new drive pulley to my order next week

Honestly not sure how this damage occured. I'm certain I didn't hit the tail blades at any time, even during that moment earlier. So did I have the mesh right? Has the boom slipped, or not been set right, or was it when I hit TH under load, or slight difference in Normal mode and IU? Too many unknowns. But I'll add some tape to the boom clamp, and check it all over when I put the new one in.

And as for the collective, I've got my pitch curves set right, and checked I got equal pitch range, zero at mid stick. Suspecting my throttle curves also, the engine sounds tuned sweet enough to my untrained ears. IU1 is 100-90-80-90-100, and IU2 is 100-95-90-95-100. Have only tried IU1 so far. Anyone know if i should just run flat curves, or suggest anything better? I'm wondering if the 20% variance in throttle is too much, and giving the impression there is no collective. When in fact, the head is bogging slightly as the pitch starts to increase, then the engine revs pick up the headspeed and that's why it's jumping up, or making it feel like it's stuck, and then it pops? Sounds plausible to me at least??? Any of you old nitro boys think thats possible (old as in not flying nitro anymore )?

Caught the first few minutes on my iphone cam, so can get that up later. But forgot it was low on memory and it ran out just as it got to the 'interesting' part Going out with the 450 now, so I'm going to try and get some 'non static' footage of that
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Old 06-11-2015, 04:57 PM   #679 (permalink)
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Old 06-11-2015, 06:02 PM   #680 (permalink)
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Looks good to me Denis, not that I know how a heli engine should be tuned. Do you know what rpm it runs at, and what headspeed it's at. Is all of that as expected. Are you maybe expecting more pop than you actually get from a 600. Their size makes them seem to move more slowly. When I first flew my 600 I crashed it because it didn't respond to cyclic like a scolded cat, and I then massively over controlled the wrong way and put it in. I'm sure you remember.

By the way you should feel very honoured. After I watched your video, youtube automatically paired you up with Dunkan Bossion, a good match I thought, so I allowed it to run on and watched his video too. I watched him before, but honestly I found myself effing and jeffing to myself as it went on. I mean it's just stupid. Not any better or worse than your video, just different.

I know it isn't relevant to the thread, but when have we ever worried about little things like that, so here it is just to share.



Good grief.

Cheers

Sutty
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Regards, Sutty
BeltEXI, mCX, mSR, 4G3, FBL Trex250SE B, FBL Trex450Pro B,
FBL Trex550e VX1 Pro, FBL Trex600ESP VX1e, Parkzone P51D, QRX350Pro
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