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Old 04-29-2011, 01:06 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default CGY750 Expert Settings effects

Quote:
A "what effect does setting X have" sticky thread might be useful here! If a Futaba engineer could expand on what's in the manual that would be great. Let's face it, Futaba would have to be mad not to be keeping an eye on this forum!

Steve
I have been waiting for someone to start tweaking the expert settings since I got my CGY750 but have only read a few threads where anyone has gone into them.Since there is only 3 heli sizes and five 5 flight modes to choose from, it is hard to imagine it would cater to everyone's tastes and flying styles, especially those who have been using FBL for some time now with other systems. I'm far from a pro but I figured i'd give a try at some of them and document what they do. The book really does not do a good job at all explaining what the settings do but i'll try and see if i can give you my impression at least. First i am starting with the ELEV and AIL Expert settings. My heli is an X5 (450 -550 size) flight mode 3. For each value i tried, i made sure to make the same changes on both Ail and Ele.


Control Feeling
This one seemed like and easy one so i started there. Default was 5 range was 1 to 10.
Manual says increasing the value will allow for consistent control feel while lowering would be more dynamic. . Basically this is very similar to the BeastX's v2.0 middle pot they call it Swashplate: direct cyclic feed forward and describe it :
Quote:
Increasing the direct cyclic feed forward will cause more cyclic stick input going directly to aileron and elevator on the swashplate. Decreasing the direct stick feed forward will do the opposite.
If the direct cyclic feed forward is too high, it will over control your cyclic input. Even though you get the impression to have a more direct control, unwanted side effects may appear, like pitch backs on cyclic stops and imprecise fast forward flight.
If the direct cyclic feed forward is too low, the helicopter will feel softer, slower and less direct..
Basically when i increased this value to 10 the control felt quicker yet the cyclic rates were the same, but since it was quicker more direct i had to make alot more corrections. I found actually that i liked it at 4 which was just a little softer than 5. On my BeastX i had the mid dial set just a hair below the center, basically achieving the same type of feel. I think some people will like it set to 7 while others will like it at 5 or 4 like me...but i think its worth trying out.

Control Delay In and Out
Default was set to 7 for Ail and 10 for Elev for both In and Out.
One thing i noticed when looking at the chart in the back of the CGY750 explaining the differences between flight modes was the big changes in this value. Increasing the number results in a softer feel and decreasing will give more aggressive feel. Closest thing this reminded me of was a cross between stick deadband setting on the vbar and BeastX and expo except that it allows for a much wider range to adjust within. When i decreased my Elev from 10 to 8 for IN/OUT, my elev became more responsive around center stick. The same is true for the Ail. One reason i chose FM 3 over FM 4 was the fact that the stick felt much more sensitive than i liked. This setting would basically allow me to tweak that to my liking. I think this setting will really make a difference for alot of people and is worth experimenting with. I'm confident that other people who are between flight modes would benefit from playing with this.

AVCS damping
This is set to 98% by default. This setting will effect how stable your heli will feel. The higher the value the more stable it will be, the better it will stabilize in windy conditions etc. As you raise this value your control feel will degrade though. The higher resolution, the higher the AVCS Dmp value can go without it degrading control. The more resolution the higher the cyclic gains can be run. If your servo arms are setup for more throw and less resolution, then the AVCS.dmp will need to be set lower as well as cyclic gains. The key here is to achieve as high a resolution as possible to allow for as high a AVCS.dmp value.

Roll Rate /ANG.Rate.
this setting adjusts the roll speed or flip speed and is set to 100% at default. If you are finding that your rates are too fast then you can slow them down here a bit. I experimented by lowering the value a bit and returning back and could see a immediate differences in my rates. If your roll/flip rates are too high, i would suggest coming here and just backing off the % a bit till it is to your liking.

Rate Constant
Default 20%-50% This value I suspect is similar to paddle simulation in the Vbar. The lower the value the less paddle type effect it seems to have.

I have not had a chance to play with anymore of the Expert settings so thats all for now
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Last edited by joe1l; 05-08-2011 at 01:07 PM..
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Old 04-29-2011, 02:55 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Good post, especially the control feeling. Correlating the CGY params to those on other FBL systems will be very helpful to many folks I'm sure.

Steve
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Old 04-29-2011, 07:05 PM   #3 (permalink)
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excellent post Joe and thank you heaps for spending the time.

Futaba really need to get more indepth on the 5 billion settings that are tweakable and provide a more layman's way of explanation.

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Old 04-29-2011, 07:20 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I played around with F/F (Forward Feed). But it looked more like revo mixing to me.
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Old 04-29-2011, 09:07 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Swash Expert Pitch/Elev/Ail Calibration is a MUST!!!

I think i found a big one!!!

I have been playing with the Ail/Ele expert menus and have been having alot of good luck making little tweaks to things like control feel etc to give me an even better flying heli. I was using the swash setting table in the very back of CGY750 instruction manual(pg118 -120) as a reference guide when I realized that on the very next page (p121) were instructions how to calibrate pitch, ail and elevator movement. Since the wind was blowing quite hard and the wife wasnt home from work i figured i'd give it a try. I had remembered seeing a post on RR with some videos from Heliguychris that went over some of this but since i didnt notice any issues during flight i didnt think it was necessary to do. i gave it a try and it turned out i had some minor interaction. The directions in the book probably would of lead me to make no changes had i not seen Heliguychris's video first and knew how to spot the interaction. Anyhow i made the changes and the end result was fantastic. The heli feels much more precise. I think this is the step that is needed if you want to remove some of the negative flybar tendencies that many of the long term vbar and other FBL users have pointed out as being something they didnt like about the 750. One thing I had felt that my X5 vbar had over my CGY750 X5 was how precise it felt and how it felt more point and shoot. Now my CGY750 feels just as precise. I cant understand why the directions dont highlight this better but really for anyone setting up their 750, i suggest taking the time and doing this. It took me 15min at most. If you havent watched the video be sure to watch it first then follow the direction as it will make much more sense.

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Old 04-29-2011, 10:55 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Thanks Joe1l, I ahve this unit and would like to learn more about useing the EXPERT setting and there effects.
More please
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Old 04-30-2011, 03:44 AM   #7 (permalink)
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When I was looking for swash interactions I used a swash leveller to spot interactions which affected AIL/ELE and for those which affected pitch I used some vernier callipers to measure the distance from the top of the main shaft down to the swash ball. Taken from:

http://www.measuring-tools.biz/measu...s-caliper.html



I sit (6) on top of the shaft and (5) reaches down to the ball.

So, for example when looking at the speed compensation as in the video above, it was much clearer to see when a gap opened/closed between (5) and the swash ball. This leads to accuracy <0.1mm.

The only interaction which was difficult to measure was forward ELE to AIL as the levelling tool is then lifted off the balls affecting AIL movement and any change in the gap is hard to spot.

Steve
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Old 04-30-2011, 05:27 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Evans View Post
When I was looking for swash interactions I used a swash leveller to spot interactions which affected AIL/ELE and for those which affected pitch I used some vernier callipers to measure the distance from the top of the main shaft down to the swash ball.


Steve

+1


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Old 04-30-2011, 06:34 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Hi Steve, a tip Dr Ben shared with me that some folks may find helpful,is to use a fine felt tip pen(Sharpie) and make a line on the mast, to make swash interactions easier to spot. The micrometer would be much more accurate tho.
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Old 05-01-2011, 03:39 AM   #10 (permalink)
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The interaction setup is nothing new really.

Witht the t8fg you can do this in the transmittor and I have done so on my flybarred 450. The heli is VERY stable now, almost flybarless like.

https://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=10782

What I dont understand is why there is interaction in the FBL unit. This is simply strange. Could it be on purpose to get the flybarred feeling?
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Old 05-01-2011, 05:58 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by velocity90 View Post
The interaction setup is nothing new really.

Witht the t8fg you can do this in the transmittor and I have done so on my flybarred 450. The heli is VERY stable now, almost flybarless like.

https://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=10782

What I dont understand is why there is interaction in the FBL unit. This is simply strange. Could it be on purpose to get the flybarred feeling?
Likewise, I use the equivalent tuning in the tx for flybarred setup. The reason that the interactions are handled in the CGY750 is that this is where the CCPM mixing is performed; this has to be done after combining pilot input with stabilisation input from the gyros and thus can only be done in the FBL unit.

Steve
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Old 05-01-2011, 11:26 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Yep, never thought of that one. But still on a fbl it shouldnt be nessesary since the fbl is correcting. Maybe this has something to do with the whole flybar feeling. I noticed a extreme big difference with my 450 flybarred with all the corrections done. It's incredible stable.
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Old 05-01-2011, 12:50 PM   #13 (permalink)
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The FBL controller will perform better if the heli mechanically responds correctly. For example if there is some ELE->AIL interaction that's not been dialled out, when you do a loop the heli will tend to corkscrew. Of course the FBL gyro will detect this and apply a correcting AIL input to the CCPM mixer, but there must be some movement for it to have been detected by the gyro.

Think of it as driving a car with the steering geometry out; sure you can make the car go in a straight line by applying a correcting steering input, perhaps aided by power assisted steering, but the car won't be as stable or nimble, will have a preference for turning left or right, and will suffer additional wear and poorer fuel consumption.

The role of an FBL controller is not to mask setup issues on a poorly adjusted heli, although it will do that, but rather to provide more predictable control over a well setup heli.

Much of the CGY750 press from the team pilots boasts about how little setup they did before first flying, but I bet they all went back and finely tuned params for competition.

Steve
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Old 05-01-2011, 05:59 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Evans View Post
The FBL controller will perform better if the heli mechanically responds correctly. For example if there is some ELE->AIL interaction that's not been dialled out, when you do a loop the heli will tend to corkscrew. Of course the FBL gyro will detect this and apply a correcting AIL input to the CCPM mixer, but there must be some movement for it to have been detected by the gyro.

Think of it as driving a car with the steering geometry out; sure you can make the car go in a straight line by applying a correcting steering input, perhaps aided by power assisted steering, but the car won't be as stable or nimble, will have a preference for turning left or right, and will suffer additional wear and poorer fuel consumption.

The role of an FBL controller is not to mask setup issues on a poorly adjusted heli, although it will do that, but rather to provide more predictable control over a well setup heli.

Much of the CGY750 press from the team pilots boasts about how little setup they did before first flying, but I bet they all went back and finely tuned params for competition.

Steve
Both X5 and my Outrage flew great even before doing this and the step itself does not take all the much time but most like me dont realize what is benefit is or really how to do it...lucky for me i watched chris's video on RR and saw how to do it. Anyhow i think when you dont do this the heli does feel more flybar like and i when i compared it my vbar x5, the vbar felt more precise while this felt more locked in. now the two feel very similar in how precise they feel.
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Old 05-01-2011, 10:21 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Excellent thread..
Perhaps it should be a sticky?
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Old 05-03-2011, 10:24 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Default Calculating roll rates

I discovered something new yesterday with regards to cyclic pitch and roll rate that is very important. When setting up your model...before going and adjusting the expert menu functions for roll etc be sure to take a look at the graph in the back of the on pages 118-120. You will notice that Ang.Base is listed as a value of 480d/s etc and that Rate. Ang value in the Ail/Ele expert settings is set by default to a value of 100%. I believe it basically will calculate how fast to roll/flip based on the set AFR value (cyclic pitch) , the model size, flight mode you are in and the rate.ang % set.

What i noticed yesterday was that after lowering my AFR's and not touching anything else, it appeared that my heli was rolling faster then it was with higher values. After doing some more tweaking with little luck, i tried cycling the heli size and flight modes so that it reset my expert settings to the point that i would need to go back in and re-adjust the values to where i had them originally. When i went back into the Ail/Ele expert menu to reset my expo etc, i realized that not every value returned back to default, specifically AVC.dmp and Rate.Ang. When i cycled to the rate.ang i noticed though the memory indicator was active even though it was still set to 50% which was a value i had tried during all my tweaking. This made me think that it possibly was re-calculating my roll rate even though the value didnt change. Anyhow the next flight everything felt perfect again...to the point that i would probably be increasing the rate.ang to get it a little faster.

For anyone doing and expert tweaking and is adjusting roll rates or cyclic, i would be sure that if you you decide to make major AFR adjustments like going from 8 degrees to 10 or like i did go from 11.5 degrees back down 9 that it might be a good idea to go back and reset your flight mode/heli size and cycle through your expert settings to ensure that any calculations done by the unit are refreshed properly.

For anyone who might be tweaking in the expert menus, if for some reason you do start to get some unwanted side effects, it would be a good idea to go back in and cylce through heli size and flight mode then go back in to the expert menus and check your values.
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Old 05-03-2011, 11:58 AM   #17 (permalink)
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This sounds normal to me. The model size is just a preset of settings. This is one reason why I write down most of my settings. If you change the model size and such, some values will be reset. The same thing happens if you change the swashplate parameter in your radio.
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Old 05-03-2011, 07:09 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wbplomp View Post
This sounds normal to me. The model size is just a preset of settings. This is one reason why I write down most of my settings. If you change the model size and such, some values will be reset. The same thing happens if you change the swashplate parameter in your radio.
See thats the thing not every setting gets reset just by resetting model size and flight mode. but yes it is a good idea to write down the settings, i think i should just start a log book.
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Old 05-04-2011, 03:33 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Thanks for this helpful thread

I still do not understand something: if you want to lower your aileron roll rate for instance: what's the difference between adjusting the AFR (on transmitter, or even on the CGY 750 through Ail.Rate) and tuning the Ang.Rate parameter ?? I know there's a relation between the two params with no doubt, but which one ?
Any idea ?
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Old 05-04-2011, 07:13 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FredRX View Post
Thanks for this helpful thread

I still do not understand something: if you want to lower your aileron roll rate for instance: what's the difference between adjusting the AFR (on transmitter, or even on the CGY 750 through Ail.Rate) and tuning the Ang.Rate parameter ?? I know there's a relation between the two params with no doubt, but which one ?
Any idea ?
When you configure the AIL.Rate and ELE.Rate in your CGY750 you define what the CGY750 itself can use. Keep in mind that the CGY needs to make corrections around your stick movement. When you configure AFR or D/R in your transmitter you define what you can use yourself.

If you ask me what is the best value to set and such, I really don't know. I have to play with that myself as well. That's why I make sure I have set 8 degrees on cyclic with the AIL.Rate en ELE.Rate, as described in the manual.
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