600e Pro Tail Blow Outs

[GB ian]

Dino,

Thanks for the update. As many have said being able to run with 2200 HS approx is desirable.

The final comment on your post above shows that Align can listen to the needs of its customer base.

Not much more needed IMO.

[raptor50luvver]

Dino

Thanks for the reply,agreed that last line says it all.

I run the 550E,600N,700N and E and all of these models are brilliant and very reliable,i am using the new 3GX unit on my 550 and its really really good indeed.

But the 600E Pros designed spec has caught me out a bit,as mentioned above if Align could do some tests with the 105s at 2200 approx and confirm the helicopter would be OK on it that would be very good.Also a 4.5 to 1 optional upgrade for the user to change the tail speed to suit the lower headspeed would also be welcome.

I am sure Align wants its end users to get the most from their helicopter,offering options for users to tailor it to their own particular tastes would be a great move.

Apart from the tail ratio as supplied i think its a fantastic model,well layed out,love the improved sliding Lipo tray and the new canopy design.

[OnTheSnap]

Originally Posted by Dino Spadaccini

GB Ian you can use any type of blade you like as you know this will change the performance.

I regards to the bashing
Align Corp puts allot of pride in what they make and wether it was meant as an attack or just someone pointing there dislike there are ways of doing this so it come across the right way just my thoughts.

As for Jamie and the XFC
where you there to hear the head speed, i know jeff was as we talked about that so stating something about head speed and a person competing please have the facts.

In regards to alienating the enduser, i must disagree with you. Our goal is to bring to market something new and fresh not a recycled heli. Align Corp is always pushing the limits on design and evolution of the product line.

just a few more of my thoughts

If running 105 tails and a head speed at 2200 is what you preferrer then thats ok for you. We will send your comments off to Align and see what they have to say about gearing and tail options its up to them to make that decision for the pro 600

Hi Dino,
In regards to the headspeed Jamie Robertson ran at XFC, I'm quoting Jamie himself who mentions his setup in this podcast: http://blip.tv/*****/collective-pitc...ertson-5263808

Locally I often fly with Jesse Kavros, and have been to IRCHA and many fun flies. All the top 600 pilots run in the 2150 -2250 range. Hence my expectation that the Pro would perform in the RPM range as well.

I appreciate Align thinking outside the box, but this sort of major performance change needs to be more clearly detailed in the specs, as it did cause me a crash, since I had expectations that the tail would perform at 2200 headspeed. I realize the manual mentions 2500, but I figured it must be misprint. Now I know Align wants me to fly at headspeeds well beyond anything seen before now. But I'll stick with 2250 5m flights with 105mm tail as it's already jaw dropping enough.

Overall I'm VERY happy with the 600 Pro now that I fully understand how to make it perform to my expectations. I'm also VERY happy to hear the model was torture tested at 2500-2700 RPM by your team pilots. That gives me great hope that it will be a very reliable model long term.

Thanks!

[GB ian]

I am only pissed about one thing...now with the arrival of the 600e Pro I might actually have to buy one..that will be four Trex 600 helis..I'll need to build a new shelf and I hate woodwork!

[raptor50luvver]

Ok i have asked Mikados V bar support team about this to see if its a V bar issue if indeed the 3GX can hold the tail OK.

Checking Mr Mels V bar videos the I gain in expert controls how hard the tail tries to hold its position before letting go and goes on to explain about the relationship between this and the tail ratio etc,maybe we need to raise this,maybe this is where the 3GX is coping better.


I will report back with Mikados answer but i have given them the full details.

I think its fair to say Align have probably designed and tested around the 3GX system,maybe the problem is V bar related not helicopter airframe.

Mr Mels video,2 mins 50 onward is the interesting bit.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xb3pd8X-gTk[/ame]

[snemi00]

I haven't been able to find a new version manual for the 550 yet. Since they put the 600 gear set in the new kits, I'm wondering what headspeeds they're recommending there.
2800 with 550's and 3000 with 520's. Scary.

[OnTheSnap]

Originally Posted by raptor50luvver

Ok i have asked Mikados V bar support team about this to see if its a V bar issue if indeed the 3GX can hold the tail OK.

Checking Mr Mels V bar videos the I gain in expert controls how hard the tail tries to hold its position before letting go and goes on to explain about the relationship between this and the tail ratio etc,maybe we need to raise this,maybe this is where the 3GX is coping better.


I will report back with Mikados answer but i have given them the full details.

I think its fair to say Align have probably designed and tested around the 3GX system,maybe the problem is V bar related not helicopter airframe.

Mr Mels video,2 mins 50 onward is the interesting bit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xb3pd8X-gTk

Moot point now. We now understand all performance testing was done at extreme RPM levels. There is no 3GX magic that can make up for insufficient tail thrust at 2200RPM. Just slap on the 105's and be happy. My 600 Pro flys amazing now. Up to 15 flights with 105's and it just rocks.

[Commodore8888]

Just pulled the trigger on a 600E today. Made sure to pick up 105mm tails and the 700 landing gear to rake the tail up. Curious does the 700e tail fin also fit? I've heard 700e and 600e use the same tail box.

Besides the tail are there any other "unmentioneds" that I should know about?

[OnTheSnap]

Originally Posted by Commodore8888

Just pulled the trigger on a 600E today. Made sure to pick up 105mm tails and the 700 landing gear to rake the tail up. Curious does the 700e tail fin also fit? I've heard 700e and 600e use the same tail box.

Besides the tail are there any other "unmentioneds" that I should know about?

I think the 700e tail fin will fit. I have a spare I think and will try it tonight.

Also, I would highly recommend the KDE v2 tail upgrade or QUK tail. The KDE upgrade uses high grade screws to hold in the grips. The QUK tail is just bulletproof. I'm running the QUK tail on mine now. But run the KDE upgrade on my 700e and 550.

[MarkFlysHelis]

This is one of the better Heli-Freak threads I've read in awhile. Generally, it's just the same regurgitated info, Which is good I guess for the folks that are unable to find what they're looking for on the search feature.

I think it's awesome there are two Align reps leaving input here. Nice to see they're listening.
The statement that was made, condescendingly, about it being a PRO cracked me up. PRO, it's a PRO. I guess my old 500ESP *electric super PRO and old 600 nitro super PRO were intended for just that...Super Pros?? This 600 is for normal pros?

The new heli looks cool and there are a lot of nice upgrades. I'm not sure about running @ 2500 though. A 12s T-rex 600E is nothing new. I built one about a year and half ago and it was insane @ 2400HS. So much so I thought it was unsafe and changed the motor/gearing to calm it down.

Sounds like "On-The-Snap" solved the issue by using 105s on the tail. I'm glad I read about it before I put mine together, went into a 100' tail slide and exploded it.

When yours went in, how did the servos fair? the design with metal servo horns and the extended linkage rod looks like it would either bend easily or destroy the servo gears.

[OnTheSnap]

Originally Posted by MarkFlysHelis

This is one of the better Heli-Freak threads I've read in awhile. Generally, it's just the same regurgitated info, Which is good I guess for the folks that are unable to find what they're looking for on the search feature.

I think it's awesome there are two Align reps leaving input here. Nice to see they're listening.
The statement that was made, condescendingly, about it being a PRO cracked me up. PRO, it's a PRO. I guess my old 500ESP *electric super PRO and old 600 nitro super PRO were intended for just that...Super Pros?? This 600 is for normal pros?

The new heli looks cool and there are a lot of nice upgrades. I'm not sure about running @ 2500 though. A 12s T-rex 600E is nothing new. I built one about a year and half ago and it was insane @ 2400HS. So much so I thought it was unsafe and changed the motor/gearing to calm it down.

Sounds like "On-The-Snap" solved the issue by using 105s on the tail. I'm glad I read about it before I put mine together, went into a 100' tail slide and exploded it.

When yours went in, how did the servos fair? the design with metal servo horns and the extended linkage rod looks like it would either bend easily or destroy the servo gears.

It actually crashed REALLY well. I was "smacking" the heli hard close to the ground (2200 RPM) when the tail let loose and I piled it. The chassis detached from the boom and it went rolling down the field. I stripped one of the front side cyclic servos (using BLS451's). Other 2 were fine. the main frame was great. Only a hairline crack near one of the cyclic servos. It's built like a semi truck. But weight wise it's still very slim. 8.6lbs with 3700mah packs.

[MarkFlysHelis]

Originally Posted by OnTheSnap

It actually crashed REALLY well. I was "smacking" the heli hard close to the ground (2200 RPM) when the tail let loose and I piled it. The chassis detached from the boom and it went rolling down the field. I stripped one of the front side cyclic servos (using BLS451's). Other 2 were fine. the main frame was great. Only a hairline crack near one of the cyclic servos. It's built like a semi truck. But weight wise it's still very slim. 8.6lbs with 3700mah packs.

Great info. Thanks.

[OnTheSnap]

Originally Posted by MarkFlysHelis

Great info. Thanks.

Oh I should also add some info about the boom struts. Might be luck, but the new boom struts are press fit at the ends. They popped out and saved both boom struts. I pooped them back in and it was still a very tight fit. The tail control rod also magically survive. Just broke the tail servo horn. Amazing.

[Commodore8888]

+1 for the press fit ones. Back when I started I smacked my B400 into the ground and those being able to pop out under extreme stress saved them. Then an accident with the 450 left one busted

[MarkFlysHelis]

Originally Posted by OnTheSnap

Oh I should also add some info about the boom struts. Might be luck, but the new boom struts are press fit at the ends. They popped out and saved both boom struts. I pooped them back in and it was still a very tight fit. The tail control rod also magically survive. Just broke the tail servo horn. Amazing.

Good deal the boom struts didn't break, but I really don't like the sound of the "press fit". I've battled with those things coming loose over the last couple of years. Now, I remove them when I build the heli and JB-Weld them in place.

[raptor50luvver]

Info back from mikado the stock I gain setting of 60 is very likely to cause tail blowouts at extremes they suggest raising to 75 in 5 point increments.
Also longer blades or wider chord may help the v bar hold better.

Also just had info back from a friend of mine he has flown a club members 600 e pro with 3gx and 95 mm blades at 2150 rpm and despite his best efforts the tail would not blow out in fact he commented how good the 3gx tail hold is.

He said he did very fast sideways flight left to right into wind and could easily perform starting from sideways flight a right piroing loop against the natural torque of the model.Proof to him there is Plenty of extra margin in stock tail power to not only hold the tail in high load conditions but to enable you to piro against it.

Gonna try my new v bar settings and report back on 95s at 2200 rpm

[ollie2893]

Originally Posted by Dino Spadaccini

We will send your comments off to Align and see what they have to say about gearing and tail options its up to them to make that decision for the pro 600

I think, Dino, that Align slightly missed an opportunity. They are still producing all the gears for the 600e/ESP. The 600e Pro main gear case is a great little adapter that allows to recycle 700e gears on the 600e Pro. If they could rethink this assembly a touch, they might be able to allow 600e Pro users to fit either the 600e or the Pro auto rotation sprocket and thus have an extra tail gear ratio option.

[ollie2893]

Originally Posted by OnTheSnap

the new boom struts are press fit at the ends. They popped out and saved both boom struts.

Hm ... I might be missing something here. On my 600e, I actually DRILL the frame screws (of the tail fin holder that attaches the struts) into the boom to assure that the struts will not let go (and the tail fin holder cannot slip aft). This has saved numerous booms. And I am yet to break a strut.

[OnTheSnap]

Originally Posted by raptor50luvver

Info back from mikado the stock I gain setting of 60 is very likely to cause tail blowouts at extremes they suggest raising to 75 in 5 point increments.
Also longer blades or wider chord may help the v bar hold better.

Also just had info back from a friend of mine he has flown a club members 600 e pro with 3gx and 95 mm blades at 2150 rpm and despite his best efforts the tail would not blow out in fact he commented how good the 3gx tail hold is.

He said he did very fast sideways flight left to right into wind and could easily perform starting from sideways flight a right piroing loop against the natural torque of the model.Proof to him there is Plenty of extra margin in stock tail power to not only hold the tail in high load conditions but to enable you to piro against it.

Gonna try my new v bar settings and report back on 95s at 2200 rpm

Interesting info! Keep us updated on your progress. Mathematically 2150 is equivalent to 1830 rpm in terms of tail authority on other models. It"s surprising the 3gx can make something hold well with so little to work with. I would like a video of a "test" so I can judge for myself how valid it is.

Can't say for sure, but I doubt your friend did a proper torture test. Try this- enter a max collective backwards inverted hurricane. Once you're at max speed drop the tail 90 degrees into a funnel. My pro on 95mm completely blows out. With 105mm it holds fine. Experiment with the maneuver to find where the failure point is with your particular setup. This will give you a precise understanding where the limit is.

My vBar settings are:
Accel - 60
P gain - 75
I gain - 75

So I'm already at 75 and my tail blows out easily on 95mm.

Would be great if you swap in a 3GX and report backband do a true apples to apples. Unfortunately I don't have one so I can't compare. Please do the above torture test or a have a pilot who is comfortable with the maneuver try it.

[raptor50luvver]

Will see what more info etc I can produce,again great thread whichever way we go about this to help solve the issue I am sure there's enough flexibility in the model maybe with a bit if help from Align to make the 600e pro suit us perfectly.

I can also confirm 105s provide very good hold so that by itself is a perfect solution I am just exploring other possible options to maybe achieve the same effect.