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Old 08-01-2011, 04:56 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Modified CGY750 Setup procedure ...My Way

After playing with my CGY750 for months, and having tried alot of things. I think i know what seems to work best for me. I also know that the standard setup will almost definitely leave existing FBL users unimpressed and many new FBL users searching for answers. Setup is key for any FBL system....the more optimal your setup the better the chance for success. Even though the CGY might work OK without any special attention to resolution or tuning of your cyclic gains etc or changes to expert menus, it will almost always work better when you take the time to tune it. It is a lot more versatile then many people make it out to be. It can feel like flybar heli if you want it too..but it can feel like a FBL heli too. The biggest issue i have seen to date is that if you like the feel of a BeastX or Vbar then a different setup approach is needed.


AFR
First things first....resolution....how to get optimal setup for the CGY750...
AFR...If you want your CGY750 to work well, then its critical to get your cyclic setup in range. To compare The Vbar has a cyclic setup screen which uses a slider of a value of 0 to 100. They have you measure exactly 8 degrees of aileron cyclic...moving the slider up will give you more throw and down less. Optimal resolution on the Vbar is a value between 80 to 100% on the slider with exactly 8 degrees of cyclic. The lower the slider value the less resolution you have, the less cyclic gain you will be able to run. The same is true with CGY750 except optimal resolution is determined by AFR% in your Swash menu. The sweet spot for Ailerion AFR is to achieve 8 degrees of cyclic throw at 50%-54% and you should also be able to get close to 11 degrees of Ail Cyclic AFR below 70% If you are getting 8 degrees of Ail with AFR % in the 40's then you should adjust your setup so your AFR is at least 50% or greater. I have found this to be the most important factor when it comes to gauranteeing good results. The only time i would suggest starting lower than 50% is when your heli needs 10+ degrees of cyclic to achieve acceptable cyclic rate. Even then it is important to start above 45%. One key reason for getting optimal AFR is that the higher your AFR the more cyclic gain you can run. With more available gain, more stability can be achieved. To demostrate simply set your cyclic gains to 20% and move your heli around...and note how little the swash compensates....increase to 80 and watch the difference...

Leveling Swash
It is very important that if a prior trim flight was done using the Futaba procedure to reset the cyclic center position, that you reset your swash menu using the Swash Expert else this procedure will not work. Getting your heli to fly level. I am not a fan of the standard trim process for the CGY750...also some people have issues with their helis even after trimming it perfectly, this is a known issue and i'm sure fix will be coming but till then i came up with my own method that is working much better..if your heli doesnt have any issues with flying level, then skip this but if you have tried everything and still have poor results, this is what i found that works. IF you have already done a trim flight, where you have memorized your neutral points, then you will need to reset your Swash menu to use this method...if you do reset it, be sure to copy all your expert and basic settings down. Instead of trimming my heli using the trim controls on my TX (which i hate) i instead level my swash using a swash leveler using the Swash Basic menu's Neutral points (pg48 of manual) I level the swash using the Ail.ntrl, Elev.Ntr,& Pit.Ntrl trying to get it as good as i can. It is very important to make sure your heli is level when doing this and that your swash links are all equal to ensure best results. I also try to keep one of my servos (Pitch or Elev if possible) at zero..i pick the servo which is most dead on and instead adjust the other two servos. This isn't always possible depending on your setup but will simply your trimflight if changes need to be made. Also you want to ensure that no one adjustment is more than 90. Chances are if you are that high then moving the servo horn 1 spline up or down is needed. Once your swash is level and your blades are level, then you must perform a trimflight. Much like like the original trimflight, you will want to set a switch on your TX to be able to switch your cyclic gryo between AVCS and NORM for both Ail&ELE. Its important to do this on a calm day but Simply hover heli and switch your cylic gyro to NORM. If it holds its position then you are done but if not, you will need to go back to your swash basic menu and adjust your Ntrl points. Try in small increments of 5 points. I find it best to only make changes to 2 of the servos, so if your pitch.ntrl or Elev.ntrl was zero then keep it at zero and adjust the other servo. It usually will take 2 or 3 attemps to get it to stay. Remember in Rate/Norm mode, very little wind will make you drift and your COG will have a greater effect. Once your heli is flying level and is not drifting in calm conditions then simply land and switch your gyro back to AVCS mode. DO NOT perform the gyro center memorization procedure, simply switch it back to AVCS only.





Cyclic Setup
Select your heli size and flight mode in the swash Basic menu that you think will suit you. I suggest choosing which ever one feels closest to how you like your control and expo.
Now here is my suggestion for setting up any heli. This setup procedure should give existing FBL users much better results as well newer pilots more consistentcy. I have found that the standard setup discourages many people from raising the cyclic..which in turn gives them inconsistent results...slow cyclic sometimes..too fast other times...etc. My approach is to first increase the agility then adjust the overall aggressive feel. After you have chosen your flight mode, you will need to go into the Ail/Elev Expert menus to make some minor adjustments...
I suggest using the TX for expo so that you can adjust it as necessary but its not critical, just make sure you have expo in 1 location only never both!!
Assuming you are within "Optimal AFR" range, start by increasing AVCS.DMP to 100%, then increase Rate.CST to 100% , next decrease Rate.Ang to 50% and last increase I.Gain= (Ail %60 Elev 55%) Do this for both Ail and Elev keeping the same settings for both except for Igain. Starting with 8 degrees of cylic (%50 Ail AFR) test fly your heli be sure to set a baseline of TX gains first (outlined in next section), chances are your cyclic will be too slow, simply go back to the Swash AFR menu and increase both your Ail and Elev AFR's by 5%. Be sure to test this by performing STATIONARY flips/rolls, if the heli flips/rolls too slow then you need to continue increasing both AIL & ELEV AFR values. NOTE: If you notice that your flips/rolls are twitchy then decrease your Rate.CST by 5-10% until the twitchyness is gone.
Once the speed of your heli's Stationary Flips / Rolls are to your liking or you find that you have increased your Ail AFR past 70% or 10.5 degrees cyclic and your heli still flips and rolls too slow, then the next step will be to start making adjustments to your Rate.Ang and Rate.CST.

Start by raising Ail/Elev Rate.Ang 5 to 10% at a time in the expert menu. Increasing the Rate.Ang will increase the speed or rate of your cyclic..if you want more agiliy, without an overly aggressive control feeling then a lower value should be used, if you want a more aggressive feel or if you find that your transitions or tic tocs are too slow then increase the value. Once you have your Rate.Ang set you can now go back and adjust your Rate.CST. Lowering your Rate.CST from 100% will increase the speed of your cyclic in FWD, while stationary remains unchanged. Decreasing this will give you a more "linear" feel (flybar like) therefore the faster you go the faster your cyclic rate will be in FFF( fast forward flight). Increasing this value will slow down your rates in FFF. Each heli is different as are everyones tastes..if you like the consistent feel a Vbar or BeastX, then keep the value higher.

TX Gains
Setting your TX cyclic gains: using your lowest programmed headspeed/Throttle Curve (i.e. set your throttle curve to 60% flat)...bring your heli to a hover and increase your AIL TX gain a few points at a time..each time moving the ail stick a bit side to side...do this till you see oscillations..... What ever the max value is, decrease it by 5% or so and use this as your Ail tx gain.(basically you want a gain that is low enough to work with your lowest headspeed...this will prevent random oscillations in flight due to voltage drop. ) If you do get an Oscillation while in flight..lower it again a few more points. Any time you increase your AFR you will need to increase your gain... if you start with 8 degrees of cylic but end up with 9 or 10..then your gain will need to be adjusted up too..

Elev gain...fly fwd in a straight line.... push elev up so that your nose is down, tail up..heli is almost at 30 degree angle..let go of elev...your heli should be able to continue going straight holding this position without the nose rising up...or going further down. Do the same thing backward ....raise gain till the heli holds its position. If gain is too high your flips will not be smooth and you may see some tail bounce after or during flight...if its too low you will see some purpoising when in FFF flight.

Once your heli is flying the way you like, be sure to go back to the Swash Expert menu and perform the steps Outlined in the Linkage Compensation section (pg122-123), specifically removing the swash interactions. This will make your heli feel more precise.
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Last edited by joe1l; 08-02-2011 at 08:40 PM.. Reason: Update to the cyclic settings
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Old 08-01-2011, 05:39 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I have been learning alot from your threads, thanks for reveiwing and sharing with us your input on CGY750.
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Old 08-01-2011, 07:32 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Thanks, Joe...great compilation of info! Hope you can keep adding to it over time.
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Old 08-02-2011, 05:34 AM   #4 (permalink)
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I have some additional remarks from my side.

AFR
8 at 50%-55 is a must have otherwise it won't work! Please keep it in mind.

Once you have your 8 in this range I'd suggest to increase the ARF up to 65% on ELE and equal cyclic on AIL which might be lower ARF then for ELE. It gives the FBL unit more working area where it compensates all the influences like wind and such.
It doesn't make sence to go above 65% and actually you shouldn't do it.

Question?
Ang.rate - what's the difference between setting your rotational rate by DR in transmitter or RATE.Ang?
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Old 08-02-2011, 04:45 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Thanks for sharing Joe1l

Today I tried that on my Srimok and here is what I found. When I tried your settings at first cyclic was very slow as you said but I also had a huge "twitchiness" when doing rolls or flips, like slow crack moves. . Adjusting main gain did nothing.
Upping Ang.rate neither. This got solved by reducing the Rate cst value to 90% instead of 150. So if you go too high on this value you might get that.

I ended up with Ail and Elevator rates at 55 - 60 respectively and that got me 9 degrees cyclic.
Ang.rate is 90% as well as rate cst

The heli is flying very consistant, really really well. No tail drift whatsoever in tic tocs or hover, tail rock solid, governor brilliant and cyclics very good also, I'm very happy. Consistency between stationary and FF rolls is good.
Only minor details for me is a bounce back on sharp elevator command abruptly released (a bit like a flybar heli), none on aileron whatsoever and I was not able to get rid of that. However in flight situation this is not a problem as this is not something that I use.

Heli is locked in, flips straight and tic tocs great. Piro manouvers I'm not profficient enough yet
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Old 08-02-2011, 08:01 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeliBenj View Post
Thanks for sharing Joe1l

Today I tried that on my Srimok and here is what I found. When I tried your settings at first cyclic was very slow as you said but I also had a huge "twitchiness" when doing rolls or flips, like slow crack moves. . Adjusting main gain did nothing.
Upping Ang.rate neither. This got solved by reducing the Rate cst value to 90% instead of 150. So if you go too high on this value you might get that.

I ended up with Ail and Elevator rates at 55 - 60 respectively and that got me 9 degrees cyclic.
Ang.rate is 90% as well as rate cst

The heli is flying very consistant, really really well. No tail drift whatsoever in tic tocs or hover, tail rock solid, governor brilliant and cyclics very good also, I'm very happy. Consistency between stationary and FF rolls is good.
Only minor details for me is a bounce back on sharp elevator command abruptly released (a bit like a flybar heli), none on aileron whatsoever and I was not able to get rid of that. However in flight situation this is not a problem as this is not something that I use.

Heli is locked in, flips straight and tic tocs great. Piro manouvers I'm not profficient enough yet
Hi HeliBenj, good to hear your heli is flying nicely How was it flying prior? Did you have issues with your tail drifting in tic tocks before? Thank you for pointing out the twitchyness during flips and rolls with Rate.CST set to 150%. I noticed the same thing as well but for me it went away around 100%. I was going to originally suggest that people start with 100% for Rate.CST, and now I recall why LOL. I am going to go back and edit my instructions for people to start 100% on Rate.CST and put in a note about what to expect when it is too high.

As for your bounce back on Elevator commands, what servos are you using? Also since you are getting 9degrees at 55% Ail, what was your 8 degree value?

I think it would be helpful if anyone has success using the above that you post your before and after settings.
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Old 08-03-2011, 05:46 AM   #7 (permalink)
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The heli was flying good before, now it's even more locked in and no pitching up in FFF rolls.
No issue with drifting tic tocs before and after.

I'm using JR 8717 and was using BLS451 before. Since switching I notice the heli is more locjed in in heavy collective manouver. Pitch pumping stops are perfect while with the Futaba I had some wobble which I attribute to lack of torque. Loving the JR in spite of the slop on the bench and 20% higher amp draw.
I had the bounce problem with the 451 also.

8 degrees was obtained at 49% so close enough I guess
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Old 08-04-2011, 08:59 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Default TREX450 setup!!

I decided to do a little more experimentation today!! I decided to install my CGY750 on my TREX450. Now this is exactly the reason why i love this unit. This TREX450 probably woudnt work on FBL unless i decided to go through the heli and replace all bearings...not to mention blades, tail blades...belt...etc It never really flew without some type of vibration. Anyhow...i figured why not.

TREX450 Sport scorpion motor, YGE80LV, Hitec 5065mg cyclic, MKS-D8910 rudder

I had to move the servo balls in to the closest spot on the servo horn..
This gave me perfect numbers Ail = 50% @ 8degrees Ele 60% 8 degrees Pitch 50% =11.5
(stock servo horn position gave me 10 degrees at 50% for ail)

Anyhow i discovered that forr the 450, i needed to make some more changes to my expert setup to get to heli to feel more locked in. The cyclic felt good to me @ 8 degrees (for my type of flying) I decided to raise the AVCS.dmp from 100% to 105% as well as raise the Differential gain from 100% to 200%...
It made a huge difference. My 450 felt nice and solid now in the air...little of drifts of wind had little to no effect! My little 450 felt just as stable as my X5! I found the increasing the AVCS.dmp did not degrade my control feeling with my 450...i went as high as 107 and didn't notice my control become any less accurate feeling! Now I found that increasing the AVCS.dmp by itself only partially helped, the heli still felt very tipsy...easily knocked off its axis. I then increased the Dgain from 100% to 200% giving my 450 a very locked in feeling with a big increase in stability making it feel like a new helicopter! I need to do some more research into DGain but for anyone looking into adding some stability to their smaller sized helis, try increasing the AVCS.DMP and Dgain like i did!

I plan on going back and playing with my X5 some more next.
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Old 08-05-2011, 03:00 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Interesting finds about d-gain. I am going to try this on my mini protos - any adverse effecs I should watch for in case I go too high?
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Old 08-05-2011, 04:33 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Another excellent thread Joe - consider yourself stickied
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Old 08-05-2011, 09:03 AM   #11 (permalink)
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I've got to say, these settings are getting it pretty close! I've been able to transform my Rave from ballistic, to sluggish, to just about right after following these setup instructions. I've got a bit more tweaking to do, but Joe has come through with a setup procedure that's just about spot on.
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Old 08-05-2011, 10:48 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Interesting finds about d-gain. I am going to try this on my mini protos - any adverse effecs I should watch for in case I go too high?
I have found that in order to be able to raise AVCS.dmp without negative control feel effects, i needed to have my AFR's in the sweet spot...my 450 worked out perfect so i knew i could go up a bit but i was able to go much higher than i expected. I would start by raising the AVCS.dmp 2 points at a time, making sure your control feel hasnt degraded too much. Once you feel your is locked in good, then try raising the dgain to 200% and see if it helps.
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Old 08-06-2011, 12:50 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I've changed dgain on my mini to 200 and indeed heli feels much more "firm" and stable. I left AVCS damp at 100/100, didn't like the feel when it was higher (was a bit too soft).
Thanks for a great tip.
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Old 08-06-2011, 05:16 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Question?
Ang.rate - what's the difference between setting your rotational rate by DR in transmitter or RATE.Ang?
I want to know that as well. And what is best when you want a slower roll rate, should you decrease you D/R in your Tx or should you lower your Ang.Rate?
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Old 08-07-2011, 02:01 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I want to know that as well. And what is best when you want a slower roll rate, should you decrease you D/R in your Tx or should you lower your Ang.Rate?
Dual rates can be used but i would use them to reduce total cyclic throw. Rate.Ang speeds up your cyclic and works with the total cyclic available. If you increase your AFR's say to 10 degrees, you could use the DR and limit the travel down a bit.
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Old 08-08-2011, 07:34 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I had to move the servo balls in to the closest spot on the servo horn..
This gave me perfect numbers Ail = 50% @ 8degrees Ele 60% 8 degrees Pitch 50% =11.5
(stock servo horn position gave me 10 degrees at 50% for ail)
Hi Joe,
Would you happen to know how long your servo arms are for this setup?
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Old 08-08-2011, 09:59 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I measured the distance to be around 11mm from center to center.
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Old 08-09-2011, 09:13 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Joe, i will say it again. Futaba owe you a gold 750 mate


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Old 08-09-2011, 03:42 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Joe, i will say it again. Futaba owe you a gold 750 mate


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Old 08-17-2011, 09:08 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeliBenj View Post
Thanks for sharing Joe1l

Today I tried that on my Srimok and here is what I found. When I tried your settings at first cyclic was very slow as you said but I also had a huge "twitchiness" when doing rolls or flips, like slow crack moves. . Adjusting main gain did nothing.
Upping Ang.rate neither. This got solved by reducing the Rate cst value to 90% instead of 150. So if you go too high on this value you might get that.

I ended up with Ail and Elevator rates at 55 - 60 respectively and that got me 9 degrees cyclic.
Ang.rate is 90% as well as rate cst

The heli is flying very consistant, really really well. No tail drift whatsoever in tic tocs or hover, tail rock solid, governor brilliant and cyclics very good also, I'm very happy. Consistency between stationary and FF rolls is good.
Only minor details for me is a bounce back on sharp elevator command abruptly released (a bit like a flybar heli), none on aileron whatsoever and I was not able to get rid of that. However in flight situation this is not a problem as this is not something that I use.

Heli is locked in, flips straight and tic tocs great. Piro manouvers I'm not profficient enough yet
I just got back from the field today and i was trying to figure out the "twitchy flips" issue when having the rate.cst above 100%. What i found was that lowering my rate.cst didn't solve it. I went as low as 60% and sitll it was having issue. Finally i decided to play with my Rate.Ang which i had set to 55%. Only after raising it to 75% did the issue go away. I found that i could then raise my rate.cst back up over 100%. I think the reason for this is that by lowering the rate.ang it must be limiting the roll rate causing twitches... my guess is that if the heli rolls or flips faster than the Base.Ang set for that particular flight mode, the twitching occurs...its almost as if it is trying to slow itself down. Now i think the rate.cst affects this too but i'm not sure if in the same way. Now i do know that you can have other twitches during rolls or flips but this is due to the Stop.dly. It may be necessary to increase this value to smooth out the flips and rolls, but when this issue is occurring, you could increase the it to the max and it still wont help.

Well more testing to come. i would like to edit my original post again to change setting your rate.ang to 50% to 75% instead.
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