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mCP X Brushless Mods Blade Micro CPx Brushless Mods and Conversions


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Old 12-06-2011, 08:47 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default My Hawk-RC 6A ESC/converter and C05M V2 motor thread

...80g+ continuous thrust at 50% pitch, 130g peak at 55%, no mysterious throttle glitch at full throttle, 4min+ idle-up flight time with 300mAh, -2.3g AUW, still waiting for good weather for harder flying to see if bogging is bad enough to make me change to the 8T...

My brushless parts from Hawk-RC finally arrived yesterday. Super fast shipping from Hawk-RC. Took merely 3 days to get to Canada Customs but got stuck there longer. With normal Customs turnaround time, that translates to 4 days to my hands after ordering!

Anyways, my brushless conversion consists of Hawk-RC's new 2.7g 6A ESC with built-in converter and C05M V2 motor (M5 everybody else calls it). I was fully expecting the M5 motor to be somewhere between stock and c05m in terms of power. Result is 80g+ continuous thrust at 50% pitch and 130g peak thrust at 60% pitch with 9T (I wanted to start with 8T but the motor came 9T pre-installed and I don't want to mess with shaft/pinion removal as the first things to do with the conversion). Flight time with brand new Hawk-Power 300mAh 30C lipo was 3 mins of idle-up hovering plus pitch pumps (indoor) and the 1.5 mins of full thrust tests in the following youtube clip. Came down with 3.73V. I set my timer to 3:30min for now but for indoor idle-up hovering so far (to run-in the new gear mesh before the thrust tests below) I've let the timer goes up another 30seconds before bringing it down. Still have >3.7V on my various 300mAh's. It's interesting that even my tired nanotech's can do idle-up hovering OK.



I already have a signal wire soldered from the MCU output while waiting for the parts. However, I'm curious of how well/bad the ESC works with signal wire plugging into the motor port and am hoping to learn something and provide tips to those who want to use this ESC (or any ESC for that matter) without bringing out a soldering iron. I tested both signal sources and of course MCU output gives much better throttle resolution. Motor port provides throttle resolution from 0 to 50% and then it's all flat. While waiting for the parts, I soldered up a couple LEDs and a current-limiting resistor to plug into the motor port hoping to "clean up" PWM signal from the motor port. With the ~50mA current sink, throttle resolution reaches 60-70%. For those who don't want to solder for their BL kit but would like a couple super-bright headlights, get some super-bright LEDs and sink 100mA+ and you'll get even better throttle resolution just from the motor port. For me, primary concern is flight times and I'll use my soldered MCU output line later on anyway so I'll pass the headlight idea.

I've read that people including Benny at Hawk-RC have had issues with the M5 motor that it'll drop headspeed at 100% throttle. I experienced that at first as well but after thorough investigation I realized that the problem is due to the ESC treating noise in the signal input (whether motor port or MCU output) as non-100% throttle request. To fix the problem, I simply set full-throttle position for the ESC just a bit lower than full stick up. I can't speak for other ESCs, but for the Hawk-RC 6A ESC/converter I figured out the undocumented procedure to set throttle range. When the red LED turns on during initialization, flip throttle stick to desired full-throttle position. When LED turns off, flip throttle stick back to lowest position. This will expand the throttle stick range in between to the full throttle output range. This ESC is specifically designed for the mCPx taking into the time delay required to initialize the 3-in-1 board so the red LED doesn't turn on (looking for throttle-set or program-mode trigger) until the 3-in-1 board has been initialized. That means there's no need to have separate power supply in order to get into program mode or throttle-set mode. Unfortunately, this ESC doesn't remember the max-throttle parameter so I have to do this on every start-up. Benny said he can relay my info to the ESC maker. Not a big deal with this bug/issue for me as the reward is much worth it. I have absolutely no headspeed drop on 100% throttle, whether it be full pitch, 0-pitch, or even free-spin. And that's with all original wires (i.e. 3-in-1 board takes`power from the ESC).

Since ESC/converter can only read between 0-50% throttle resolution from motor port I programmed my Tx (DX6i) to have throttle curve from 0-60% for normal mode and 60% flat for idle-up. By setting max throttle position at 50% throttle channel value, I get linear to throttle throttle response throughout almost the entire stick travel, although throttle resolution is not very detailed as you can imagine expanding throttle-channel value range from 0-60% to 0-100%. In fact, the throttle "step" response is so linear that I get more throttle change in the upper half of throttle stick positions than with stock brushed motor and I have to set ESC to use "curve 3" which is the most negative-expo one. I also set ESC's mid-soft-start (i.e. not the softest start) because 1. stock soft-start works, and 2. ESC's softest start setting could be too soft to end up crawling the motor into a cog and refuse to spin up. With my ESC's mid-soft-start and stock soft-start or stock normal start I never have a problem with the M5 motor not starting up and the start-ups are not too hard. I have a much much bigger problem starting up the stock strong-cog brushed motor.

Back to the M5 motor. Quality is not the best. Perhaps HP motors will be better in that department. I notice that not all magnets have the same clearance to the stator. Either the motor end bell is not perfectly round or the shaft hole is not drilled dead center or the shaft has been bent (I doubt this because it's the 1.5mm part of the shaft end I'm talking about and the bell end shaft mount is touching the bearing so it'll take a lot of beating to bend that part of the shaft). Don't notice any problem though as it spins up. The possible out-of-round is not noticeable any other way than checking magnet clearance. I notice that the motor runs only 6 magnets instead of 12. Do other motors run 12? What if I install another 6 magnets in. Anybody tried that?

All in all, I'm happy with my BL upgrade so far. Still waiting for good weather for harder flying tests. If bogging too much I'll change to the 8T which I already have. Too bad 7T is hard to fine. I would probably like the 7T best. Loving the BL upgrade so far. Wish I did it last time my stock brushed main retired but I was persuaded to just buy another brushed stock main to replace the tired one.

EDIT: Oh, forgot the links...

Motor: http://www.hawk-rc.com/index.php?rou...product_id=556
ESC/converter: http://www.hawk-rc.com/index.php?rou...product_id=631

Last edited by DoubleCH; 12-16-2011 at 01:49 AM.. Reason: More descriptive title
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Old 12-06-2011, 09:09 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Nice write up!
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Old 12-07-2011, 08:48 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Took the first outdoor testing earlier today in my backyard. It was cold and wet at the time so I didn't want to take it to the park. Tried 2 flights with 6mm stock tail motor and 7mm Novus CP tail motor, both with KBDD tail rotor.

stock tail motor

7mm Novus CP tail motor
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Old 12-07-2011, 10:47 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Before I finished uploading the 2 clips, the sun came out and I had to go try out the brushless mod in the open. Managed to to do a few flips with my rusty skills. Nowhere near good but even without good collective management, the bird just wandered around instead of dropping out of the sky. The power is a bit better than stock but the biggest improvement is no tail blowout or main shutdown. I think I'll like running 8T better but for now 9T is doing a good enough job for me. Here's the clip but my flying is not that interesting to watch. I just want to show how my setup is flying. Forgive my camera angle as I didn't adjust my cap properly where the 808 camera was on.



On my last flight I lost orientation and bailed out by hitting throttle hold. I was surprised to hear the motor still going so I quickly ran over. Turned out I was doing some testing and set my Tx throttle hold throttle to 100%. Luckily nothing was damaged and the motor was powerful enough to spin the main gear on the mainshaft!
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Old 12-13-2011, 02:32 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Thanks to the nice weather I had a chance to do more flipping practice with the brushless setup. I've since changed to 8T from the 9T that came with the motor. I like the torque of running 8T (80% pitch) which means pitch pump is solid and direct collective respond but then I like the lower pitch requirement with 9T (70% pitch) which means more available cyclic while full collective. I also like the smoother collective respond.

In one short afternoon, I was able to fly 8 batteries back-to-back without tail blowouts or mechanical issues, and only a few crashes. That's something I've never been able to do before brushless mod. I was able to focus on my flying much more and flip much better than before (although still not great or consistent enough).

We know that when we first learnt to hover, the heli always seemed to be attracted to the object you really want to miss. While practicing flipping the other day, I don't mind my bird to wander around with all that open space, but it seemed to always try to blade-fart on my head. Click on the time-mark links in the comment or description section on the youtube page to go directly to those scenes. Oh, and those bird attacks, too. (seems that way at least) Enjoy!

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Old 12-14-2011, 08:24 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Hi,

Thanks for the write up..

I'm sorry if I sounded stupid.. so do you need to solder anything from the setup from hawkrc..

I'm thinking of getting this set up.. and it's going to be my first BL setup..

what do I need to do with my transmitter setting..

and how do I do the programing of this esc..

Thanks
q
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Old 12-14-2011, 12:29 PM   #7 (permalink)
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No problem. Don't be sorry. Brushless setup can be confusing, perhaps especially so with my longwinded write-up.

With this Hawk-RC setup, you don't need to solder anything. You only need to solder if you want more throttle resolution. Basically, taking throttle signal from the stock motor plug and without any soldering, throttle resolution can be obtained only from 0-50% (from mid-stick down, which is the most important part of throttle curve you need throttle resolution anyways). From mid-stick up it's all 100% throttle. It may sound not ideal but to be honest it's not a problem at all. I tried a few things to increase throttle resolution without soldering but in the end I find them not necessary. The least throttle change while flying the easier the tail can hold. Brushless motor runs most efficient at full throttle and constant speed anyways. And most importantly, with throttle resolution between 0-50%, stock soft-start works. You can start up by flipping on idle-up or in normal mode. My heli starts up nicely every time, normal mode or idle-up. I even set the ESC to run instant-start instead of relying on any soft-start from the ESC.

Regarding programming Tx, there's no special programming necessary. I started off by specially program the Tx to run 0-60% throttle curve and set ESC max throttle position to be just below full stick (i.e. 50-ish% throttle with 0-60% throttle curve setting). This was to fix the problem with intermittent speed drop at full stick up. However, after days of flying this intermittent speed drop mysteriously disappears! Plus I figure I don't really need throttle resolution from mid-stick up anyways so why not just reset throttle curve back to normal.

Regarding programming ESC. You don't need to unless you run into the intermittent speed drop problem. In that case, you may want to set max throttle setting with the ESC which is easy to do. Take a closer look at the start of the 1st clip in post #3:

https://www.helifreak.com/showpost.p...98&postcount=3

Basically, you need to make sure Tx is in normal mode no throttle hold and throttle stick all the way down (like you normally would start up). Plug in flight battery and wait for the 3-in-1 board to bind first (solid blue LED). Within 2 seconds of blue LED turns solid, hold throttle stick up to desired max throttle position (preferably a bit below full stick up). I do it with full left rudder at the same time because I don't want the tail to spin up. Wait about 2 seconds and pull throttle stick down to lowest and that's it!

If you want to program anything else with the ESC, follow the instructions in the manual (download link on product page on Hawk-RC website http://www.hawk-rc.com/index.php?rou...product_id=631). To enter program mode, do it like you set max throttle position except you leave throttle stick up instead of pulling it down. Wait for tones for program mode confirmation. Unlike other ESCs where they require throttle up right at startup to enter program mode, this ESC is specially designed for mCPx operation and takes into account that the 3-in-1 board won't go throttle up right at startup. That means there's no need to power 3-in-1 board separately to get into programmode.

Note that you can program any numbers of parameters as specified in the manual in a single programming session. The only limitation is that in 1 programming session you can only program either: 1. max throttle position, 2. all other parameters. You cannot do both within 1 programming session. Since this ESC doesn't remember max throttle position setting after removing flight battery, you want to set all other parameters before you unplug/replug battery to set max throttle position if you want to set both.

Now that everything seems to run fine with my setup. I plan to solder the signal wire to the wire I pre-soldered to the MCU output and see how it goes and at the same time remove some long wirings to save weight. Note that this is not necessary if you prefer full plug-and-play operation, which this ESC works very well for.
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Old 12-14-2011, 06:18 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Hi DoubleCH,

Thanks for the explanation.. Now I understand it better..

I saw their 2 video explaining about removing of a "small chip" beside the main motor..???? to make the resolution better>> Do you know what it means?

Then It say making soldering the MCU better??? You mention something about this MCU as well.. Do you mind explaining this part how to do.. and if you have a picture of the said soldered.. where?

Thanks for all your patient..

quest
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Old 12-14-2011, 09:57 PM   #9 (permalink)
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The chip is a capacitor to avoid back EMF from the stock brushed main motor back fires to electrocute the FETs. Without the stock brushed main motor as a high current sink, this capacitor takes a long time to drain, resulting in removing the PWM pulses when duty cycle is close to 100% (high throttle position). That's why the ESC/converter cannot properly detect throttle range from 50% to 100%. Adding a high current sink (super bright LEDs or pulldown resistor) can help draining this capacitor faster and restore the PWM signal. The alternative Hawk-RC suggests is to remove the capacitor altogether.

To be honest, if you go this length to remove the cap from the 3-in-1 board (an irrecoverable task), I would rather solder the signal wire to the MCU output directly (a recoverable task). This signal point doesn't require a pulldown resistor and that's why even without brushed motor installed you get the full PWM signal and therefore much better throttle resolution.

Attached are pics to show where exactly my soldering point is. It is tiny and with good soldering skill and good soldering iron and fine tip it's quite an easy job. But for those without good soldering experience or good soldering iron with fine tip, I don't recommend you do it yourself since you may end up ruining a $60 board. Some people on this forum are willing to do the soldering job for a reasonable fee.

If you have the skills and equipment to do the soldering job, my tips are to tin the wire first and then hot-glue the wire into place.This will free up your fingers to work delicately on the soldering job and will prevent the wire from wiggling loose in the future. Accurately secure the tinned wire tip against the resistor solder point. You may want to do by holding a small flat blade screw driver against the wire a few mm back from the solder point. Touch the tinned wire tip with the soldering iron just long enough (a couple seconds) for the solder to melt and quickly remove the iron. The melted solder will transfer to the resistor solder point.
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Old 12-15-2011, 06:39 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleCH View Post
The chip is a capacitor to avoid back EMF from the stock brushed main motor back fires to electrocute the FETs. Without the stock brushed main motor as a high current sink, this capacitor takes a long time to drain, resulting in removing the PWM pulses when duty cycle is close to 100% (high throttle position). That's why the ESC/converter cannot properly detect throttle range from 50% to 100%. Adding a high current sink (super bright LEDs or pulldown resistor) can help draining this capacitor faster and restore the PWM signal. The alternative Hawk-RC suggests is to remove the capacitor altogether.

To be honest, if you go this length to remove the cap from the 3-in-1 board (an irrecoverable task), I would rather solder the signal wire to the MCU output directly (a recoverable task). This signal point doesn't require a pulldown resistor and that's why even without brushed motor installed you get the full PWM signal and therefore much better throttle resolution.

Attached are pics to show where exactly my soldering point is. It is tiny and with good soldering skill and good soldering iron and fine tip it's quite an easy job. But for those without good soldering experience or good soldering iron with fine tip, I don't recommend you do it yourself since you may end up ruining a $60 board. Some people on this forum are willing to do the soldering job for a reasonable fee.

If you have the skills and equipment to do the soldering job, my tips are to tin the wire first and then hot-glue the wire into place.This will free up your fingers to work delicately on the soldering job and will prevent the wire from wiggling loose in the future. Accurately secure the tinned wire tip against the resistor solder point. You may want to do by holding a small flat blade screw driver against the wire a few mm back from the solder point. Touch the tinned wire tip with the soldering iron just long enough (a couple seconds) for the solder to melt and quickly remove the iron. The melted solder will transfer to the resistor solder point.
I see.. thanks for sharing this information..

Ok Now I know where the point of solder is.. what's at the other end of the soldered black wire..

quest
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Old 12-15-2011, 11:13 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by questerng View Post
I see.. thanks for sharing this information..

Ok Now I know where the point of solder is.. what's at the other end of the soldered black wire..

quest
Supposedly you solder the red signal wire from the ESC/converter to the point where I soldered the black wire. I pre-soldered the black wire before I got the ESC/converter so that I can easily solder the red signal wire from the ESC/converter to my black wire or solder it to the motor port for plug-and-play testing and swap back-and-forth easily for testing purpose.
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Old 12-16-2011, 04:08 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Arh...
That means you can solder the black wire to the back or the main motor port where the signal wire go.. For easy changing of motor without de-soldering.?

Thanks for a the patient..
Quest
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Old 12-16-2011, 05:40 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Arh...
That means you can solder the black wire to the back or the main motor port where the signal wire go.. For easy changing of motor without de-soldering.?

Quest
No, it means I can solder/re-solder the ESC input wire to take signal from either the motor output port (test plug-and-play operation) or my black wire (MCU output for better throttle resolution) easily.
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Old 12-16-2011, 06:26 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleCH View Post
No, it means I can solder/re-solder the ESC input wire to take signal from either the motor output port (test plug-and-play operation) or my black wire (MCU output for better throttle resolution) easily.
Arh.. ok..

so which you prefer.. direct to MCU.. or motor output port..

quest
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Old 12-18-2011, 02:12 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by questerng View Post
Arh.. ok..

so which you prefer.. direct to MCU.. or motor output port..

quest
Surprisingly, I prefer using the motor output port. I like it that I'm basically running full throttle from mid-stick up in normal mode and yet I still get the nice soft-start from the 3-in-1 board. I don't really need throttle resolution (or even any throttle change) from mid-stick up.
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Old 12-18-2011, 07:14 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleCH View Post
Surprisingly, I prefer using the motor output port. I like it that I'm basically running full throttle from mid-stick up in normal mode and yet I still get the nice soft-start from the 3-in-1 board. I don't really need throttle resolution (or even any throttle change) from mid-stick up.
make sense.. thanks..

I will be having this as a Christmas gift..

I can't wait to open my Christmas present... arhhhhh.....

thanks for all your sharing.. Hope you don't mind if I ask more when I get into trouble..

Cheers and have a great christmas
quest
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Old 12-18-2011, 07:31 PM   #17 (permalink)
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No problem. Keep asking questions. I know I often don't explain things right the first try and may go a longer way than necessary to explain things so questions are good.
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Old 12-21-2011, 03:31 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Default Fails to start the motor sometimes,,

Hey..

My Hawk RC brushless mod has a bit of a "glitch" sometimes when I go to start the motor doesnt turn.. the tail goes but the head doesnt spin, Ive tried moving it slowly, using the 3n1 slow start etc, sometimes if i disconnect the battery and reconnect it works but not always...

Any ideas ??
Andrew
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Old 12-21-2011, 12:29 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Which motor are you running? According to some reliable reports, certain versions of c05m and v2 (m5) motor are prone to have non-start issue. Does this problem emerge recently or happen from day 1? Make sure all your connections are secure. Make sure gear mesh is fine, spinning motor housing has enough clearance from stock frame, servos, motor wires, etc. Make sure main rotor spins freely. Any brushless motor should be much more freely to spin than stock brushed motor.

Try program ESC to use "kick start" instead of one of the soft-start settings. You don't have to be consciously start up slowly. Just move throttle stick up normally or use throttle-hold or idle-up switch normally. The soft-start feature from the 3-in-1 board should work just fine even with full plug-and-play operation. My v2 motor from Hawk-RC starts up fine every single time so far with full plug-and-play operation and "kick start" setting, whether I start in normal mode or use idle-up/throttle-hold.
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Old 12-24-2011, 09:00 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Default My Christmas present is here

It's here..

someone has been peaking into my wishlist..

I couldn't decide which BL motor to get and had the 2 listed.. and I got them both.. heheehehe.... should have listed more.. hahahahaha....

can't wait to see how PNP this combo is..

wish me luck.. Hope I don't mess this up..

p.s. DoubleCH.. be prepare for more question.. hehehehehe...
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