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Old 08-16-2019, 06:48 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Tail Issues

Need some help on a new Protos 380.


I'm having some major tail holding issues and can't seem to figure out what's going on.



If I give positive collective the tail is blowing out to the right badly in all three head speeds. I also have a semi-fast tail wag in a hover. On my NEO I've taken the tail gain from 40 up to 70 and no change. I've increased and decreased the I gain and no change. I've taken the pre-comp down to 0 and up to 70 and no change.

I found another servo arm and now have the tail servo (KST X15-755N) almost perfect 90 and I have the tail blades, pretty much, at zero pitch. The tail travels are at 88 left and 104 right.


I'm using the HW Governor at default settings.
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Old 08-16-2019, 08:08 PM   #2 (permalink)
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if you have vcontrol tx, did you do a trim flight?
the tail travel looks off, did you use the tail tool?
micro tail servo?
what rpm is your head speed? do you have the speed up tail pulley?
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Old 08-16-2019, 10:20 PM   #3 (permalink)
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The trim flight is just for leveling the swash, that isn't my problem.


What tail tool are you referring to? It's a full size servo on a Protos 380. There's no need for a speed up tail. The tail is kicking to the right through every head speed.


Reading the tuning info on vstabi.info, it says that if the precomp is turned up and nose is still turning left, reduce the governor. Does that apply if I'm using the HW gov or just the NEO gov?
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Old 08-16-2019, 10:31 PM   #4 (permalink)
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What tail servo? I think the tail tool is just a process for setting up your tail. With the numbers that you are showing, the tail control rod can be adjusted to give you closer readings. AFIK, Mikado's recommendation has always been to have your numbers be as close together as possible, and preferably within 10. I have not had a heli setup where I could not adjust the tail numbers to less than 10, and usually within two or 3 apart.


Back when I first got started, the recommendation was to adjust the tail so that in rate mode, you got it steady, but we don't even have that option available (at least with the Vbar setups I am running). I will admit that I don't fly your heli, so there may be something specific about its setup that I am not aware of, but I have set up a Trex 470, and have not had any issues with that size heli.
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Old 08-16-2019, 10:38 PM   #5 (permalink)
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trim flight isn't just for leveling the swash.. it trims the tail too. basically rate mode for the tail..but it does it for you.
still didn't say what head speed.
if the tail is kicking to the right, it isn't holding for whatever head speed you have, that why I mentioned the speed up pulley. you shouldn't need a full size servo on the tail, a mini is fine.. some people even use a micro, but I liked a mini.
I always use the neo gov, its better than the hobbywing.. although it is pretty good for an esc gov.
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Old 08-16-2019, 11:46 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonys-heli View Post
trim flight isn't just for leveling the swash.. it trims the tail too. basically rate mode for the tail..but it does it for you.
still didn't say what head speed.
if the tail is kicking to the right, it isn't holding for whatever head speed you have, that why I mentioned the speed up pulley. you shouldn't need a full size servo on the tail, a mini is fine.. some people even use a micro, but I liked a mini.
I always use the neo gov, its better than the hobbywing.. although it is pretty good for an esc gov.
TRIM flight is used only after you have the setup correctly, OPTIMIZER flight is for tail and/or main rotor to equalise the rotation rates and stops.

If the helicopter yaws to the left when you demand lots of collective/power/torque you can increase collective pre-comp. BUT, always a but, it depends if the tail rotor system has enough power to counter the sudden increase in torque on the helicopter. This depends on rpm, tail blade size and amount of pitch available on the tail blades.

If you were increasing gain and nothing changed, then you surely have the tail servo arm too short. a Wag in hover is a mechanical problem, so first of all do a proper mechanical setup of the tail as per Mikados recommendations with ZERO binding.

Only now can you adjust the Neo to get the tail solid.

https://www.vstabi.info/en/node/2043
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Old 08-17-2019, 12:55 PM   #7 (permalink)
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So I moved one more hole out and that still didn't help much.


- After doing a few more test flights, I found that if I dropped the i gain I would pretty much eliminate the wag. Right now I'm down to 25 on the i gain. If I take it back up to default, I get a bad/fast tail wag. Is being this low in the i gain ok?



I had to change the gear ratio in the VTouch and got proper headspeed readings. I'm spinning 2600, 2800, and 3000.


I'm going to disable to governor in the HW next and see if that doesn't help things at all.


- Ok, turning off the governor got rid of the hard tail right/nose left kick. I'm able to tune that now with the pre-comp but trying to tune out the tail wag first then work on pre-comp.
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Old 08-17-2019, 03:32 PM   #8 (permalink)
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On a HW ESC, we had the same issue during startup. Is this when you are getting the tail kick. I think this is a pretty well known issue using HW ESCs. I had to do the same, take the governor function out of the VCT/neo, and run it inside the ESC. I had to really slow down the spoolup (increase the initial spoolup time) to eliminate the tail kick. Once we got it up to full speed, the tail held just fine.
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Old 08-17-2019, 05:33 PM   #9 (permalink)
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No, that's the not tail kick I'm refering to. I mean, it is doing that but the bigger issue was in the air. One a collective climb out the tail was kicking to the right. Once I turned off the HW Gov to test, the kick stopped so the Gov was too aggressive. I now need more info on the gains.
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