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Old 01-18-2012, 12:16 AM   #1 (permalink)
 

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Well I am happy and scared at the same time to say I just ordered a new align 700 f3c v2. I am excited to fly it, not soo much build it, (too much home work) but anything i need to know about these newer birds? It will be interesting going from 6 cell to 12 cell, and wow i need to get more batteries now that it takes two for every flight, good grief. If any one can give pointers, by all means lets here it.

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Old 01-19-2012, 04:07 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Big heli's are a lot of fun. I don't know much about the 700, but I do know a little about batteries and chargers.

The problem with batteries this large is that it's hard to find a charger that can charge them at any real speed. You can get 10c charge rate batteries, but in a 5000 pack that is 50 amps which is more than any charger I know of can deliver. So if you charge at 5c then that's 25 amps which is way more doable.

On top of that most people charge both 6s packs in parallel so that they don't need a 12s charger so you can take the figures above and double them.

At the end of the day, your probably going to need a power lab 8 which can do 40 amps or a icharger 3010 which can do 30, which is 4c for the power lab and 3c for the icharger.

The next problem is a power supply. Both chargers are limited on the input side as well (power lab 8 is 60 amps, and icharger is around 40 amps) so if you are using a 12v power supply the most you can get out of a power lab8 is 720 watts (60 amps x 12) and 500 watts out of the icharger. This knocks down your charge rate to 3c for the power lab (around 30 amps) and 2c for the icharger (around 20 amps.)

The way around this is to step up to a 24v power supply so that the input current is less which will give you 1344 watts from the power lab and 1000 watts from the icharger, but now your looking at a 1000+ watt 24v power supply which is expensive, and basically requires a generator in the field.

Here is what I do: I have a 24v power supply for charging at home (made from server power supplies) so I top off my batteries before I go fly, then when I get the field I use the battery on my truck (it's a big dual battery setup because it's a diesel) with the engine running. I pull the max 60 amps at 14v with my power lab 8 which gives me around 800 watts to work with. This will charge two 6s5000 packs at 35 amps which is just over 3c so I normally can have a large pack like this charged in 20 minutes.

Sorry if this post is overly technical, I have engineer in my job title and sometimes I can't hold it back.

Hope that helps.
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Old 01-19-2012, 04:12 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Gens ace batteries. Best bang for your buck.
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Old 01-19-2012, 07:38 PM   #4 (permalink)
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That's great sarah. Hope you keep everyone up to date once you get it.

I concur with everything the last two posters said. A 24v power supply setup from server supplies (check feathermerchant) and an icharger is the way to go.
I personally use the feathermerchant supplies and a Hyperion Duo at home. For the field I use 2x12v truck batteries in series so I still have 24v input.

GensAce seem to be the battery of choice for a lot of folks right now. I have 3 new 6s sets for my 6HV I bought on Black Friday that I'm waiting for Spring to charge.

Looking forward to some video of your new beast in flight.
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Old 01-19-2012, 07:46 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Ooo weee!!! a 700! I am a bit jelous!!! that is very nice! please keep us up to date on the build and of course the maiden flight!

You will most definetely want some good charging capacity for those packs!
I agree with the previous on the dual server supplies... you can find a good deal on Dell supplies on ebay that do not require any grounding mods... the Hyperion Super Duo is a good choice for a charger...
here is my charging settup with 24 and 12 volt (and 5 for USB charging!)
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Old 01-19-2012, 07:59 PM   #6 (permalink)
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well i already have a dual 6 cell charger, from my 600 esp that i have. I usually charge both 6 cell 5000 at once anyway and I charge them at 5c. i have the venom dual 10 charger,/hitec etc, and i run all hperion 65c 5000 packs. I currently have ten of them, so I should not need any more, even though instead of ten flights i know have five, that part is not soo good.
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Old 01-19-2012, 08:37 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Sarah, congrats on the 700 F3C. I'm curious, why did you go with the F3C model? Are you more that style of flight rather than sport or 3D?

I don't know much about the F3C version, but I've got quite a bit of experience with the 700 electric. One thing to note is that the lengths that Align gives you for the links aren't exact. They'll get you in the ball park, but that's about it. My advice is to do the lengths that they say and then look at your geometry starting from your servos and going to the head and make any adjustments that you need to have proper geometry. Finless has some good build videos about proper geometry and if you want to PM me about it, feel free.

The links is really the biggest pain of it all. The rest goes together pretty nice. One thing you definitely want to do is take apart anything and everything that they have pre-assembled and make sure you put locktite on every bolt.

Another piece of advice is to use a BEC and a secondary battery to power your electronics and let the 12 cell power the motor only. Some people swear by this method and others swear against it. It comes down to preference. Personally, I like having a separate battery in case something happens to the 12 cell. That way I've got power to the servos to get the heli down safely.

That's about it.

Concerning charging, it sounds like you've got a pretty good setup already. I wouldn't worry about that. You've got enough flight packs to fly while some are charging.
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Old 01-19-2012, 10:14 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I was told the f3c version from helidirect and heliproz was they most advanced, it was one step above the 3gx system actually. I thought maybe the guy from heliproz was pulling my leg, but he said it was by far a better design, since the head was completely re done. I also ordered the kde direct 700xf 495 motor which is suppose to be just insane, along with all of the other kde parts, including the 3rd bearing block. Align has always been off with their links, they are close but not quite. When i built my 600esp last year they were within five turns of being correct. One thing that I use to help me is a digital caliper I may get a swash plate leveler also but who knows. I would never rely just on my 12 cell to run my radio gear, that is crazy. this kit comes with a bec and the battery to run them, if not i have a spare battery and spare bec as well. I will post pictures when it gets here and the build process.
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Old 01-28-2012, 02:05 AM   #9 (permalink)
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I'm not sure what your level of competency is with electronics, and how much you'd like building things like power supplies, etc, or you just love flying!

I have to remind myself constantly that while these DIY electronics forums are so active, it's not like that in the real world, and 99.9% majority of pilots just love to fly and couldn't care less about learning more than they need to build and maintain their birds, radio gear, and lipos.

If you're part of the 99.9%, then I suggest contacting trustworthy store owners like David from ProgressiveRC who can hook you up with the right gear. From what I heard, his Spyder Lipos are pretty good value for what they are too.

Also, while forums are good, nothing beats a sensible electronics guru at your local field. Like all the posts above indicate, there are many possible ways to get to where you need. Some cost more but will get you there easier and quicker. Some cost a lot less, but comes with a lot of time spent with a soldering iron and spools of wire.

Going large with helis means added cost to everything power wise, and while you can't go wrong with something like a 2000W power supply (Protek/Hyperion) and a good 1000W charger, what you have now for your 600 is probably good enough.

Heck, I survived well enough on a my 350W iCharger, taking about hour to charge and balance 4x6S 5000mah packs from storage to full charge, for two flights.

Apart from that, nothing that much different with a 700-sized heli from it's smaller cousins. Easier to work on, much more stable in flight, but a challenge to fit in the back seat of your car. Crash costs are more, but not by much, unless you total the components as well.

If you need help on what components to use, check out helifleet. Lot's of examples of people flying different components in the t-rex 700 with success.
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Last edited by rchelijc; 01-28-2012 at 02:06 AM.. Reason: didn't read the previous posts properly
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Old 01-28-2012, 02:16 AM   #10 (permalink)
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i think the F3C is flybarred, and not flybarless? I may be a bit behind with the align offerings...

I don't trust BECs at 12S. You might better off running receiver packs for your electronics.
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Old 01-29-2012, 12:45 AM   #11 (permalink)
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i will have to post pictures but finished the bird today, and i am running the align bec which i will switch to the cc pro bec. I am going to do more changes to this heli so at the moment it is stock, and i found out that the f3c is extremely stable but a little slow lol. this is due to the larger and heaver blades, paddles and tail stabilizer, soooo i ordered radix 690 blades, and paddles, and a smaller, tail stabilizer. with the kde motor, this should be insane. i ll keep you posted.
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Old 01-29-2012, 08:44 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Definitely change out the BEC. The Align one is junk. They always fail...and the most bad time too. I've run the CC Pro BEC without any issues. I have it on both my 700Es. I do hear that they too have the tendency to fail, but I've never had a problem with them. Just make sure you get a newer one. Those tend to have a better record. Actually, I haven't heard of a single one of the newer ones failing.

I was thinking that it would be too slow. The way the ratios are set up on that heli it's supposed to be. I don't know if you can change where some of the links bolt in or not. If so you can change the ratios to quicken it up, but it may still be too slow after that. You can give it a try and see. The blades and paddles will quicken it up, but you'd see more if you can change the ratios instead and keep what you have. The horizontal stabilizer does nothing but help keep it stable in fast forward flight. If you're not doing that it's pretty much useless and does nothing.

EDIT: I went back and re-read your original posts. The F3C heli is a flybar and has nothing to do with the Align 3GX flybarless system. The heli you got was designed for FAI F3C style competition. So, lots of hovering and fast forward flight with basic forward aerobatics. If you are wanting to do more sport flying and mild to wild 3D then you can try changing the ratios on the head to make the response quicker. I did see a pic on helidirect's website of that heli and you can change the ratios on the head.

If that isn't enough then change out the entire head for a regular 700E flybar head. I would say save your money on the motor and blades, but still get a different BEC. Use the motor and blades that you have now and try the ratio change on the head first. If that doesn't work then do a head change. You can either remove the horizontal stabilizer entirely or put a regular 700 horizontal fin on it.
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Old 01-29-2012, 12:54 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Yeah I dont want to just hover around, maybe when I first started, but I like super fast forward flight with some back flips, in there and some barrel rolls maybe mixed up with some tic tocs as well and inverted hovering etc. So will this even do inverted hovering as well? I am so annoyed the sales guy totally duked me. How frustrating.
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Old 01-29-2012, 04:24 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by courtney2018;3599989
If that isn't enough then change out the entire head for a regular 700E flybar head. I
..



or go fbl, with the fbl main shaft (shorter ) and pitch rods and with beastx or vbar
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Old 01-29-2012, 05:19 PM   #15 (permalink)
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It is completely unacceptable. If what you say is true, then the dude just got away with outright lying to you to move a 'slower selling' item off his shelf.

I don't know the sales stats, but I consider the 700 F3C to be a model in the middle of the road - those who are serious with F3C are likely to choose better options for not much more money, while those who don't will be told the 700E 3GX is a much better deal, and can be toned down for slow, stable flight. I would even go as far as to say, ANY heli this size can be tuned to fly slow, but many will take $$$ to fly the way you want which is a little harder and snappier.

I've seen many take it up with the sellers on the forums for a lot less.

In my opinion, you should not have to spend (a lot) more money just to 'fix' a machine that was meant to do something other than what you ordered.
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Old 01-29-2012, 06:08 PM   #16 (permalink)
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yeah i have been talking to them now about it, but of course they are dragging their feet all these rules etc, yet they keep telling me there is no difference between the two.
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Old 01-30-2012, 12:46 AM   #17 (permalink)
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There's a huge drastic difference. My guess is now that you've bought it, it's your problem. Just my guess. What to do to make it like you want...change the head to a regular 700 flybar head. I would also get a main shaft too. I don't know if the main shaft for the F3C version is different or not. See if the flybar for the F3C is different than the regular 700. If it's different get a new flybar too. Get rid of the horizontal stabilizer and get the regular 700 one.

I want to say that the frames are different for the F3C too. I'm not 100% sure on that, but it seems like Align changed the geometry for the F3C version. Leave the frames alone until you crash and then get the regular 700E frames.

To change out the head is going to cost you probably some where around $150. I think that you'll have to also get a different set of blades. If blades came with the F3C then they're weighted completely different than regular flybar blades. There's another $130.

It seems like someone sold you on something that you weren't wanting. You could try and sell it as it is and get a new kit, but you'd lose more money on the sale than just changing the stuff out. You might be able to get a more responsive heli by changing the ratios on the head. Give that a try first and see what it's like. There are people that use the Align F3C model so all isn't lost.
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Old 01-30-2012, 01:28 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Disclaimer - I have ZERO experience with Align heli's, let alone the 700e F3C V2.

I'll assume that you're sick of the nonsense and will just stick it out and fly this beast.

Doing a quick google it seems that a lot of the limitations of the V1 model in terms of tunability were lifted - that is you may be able to really tune the F3C V2's head to get insane performance. Same with Flybar tunability.

Design wise, it looks like the F3C was designed to be more stable, stiffer and robust (better maybe?) compared to the normal 700E.

So like someone said before, try flying everything stock, but tuned to something fun like 14collective/10cyclic (+cyclic ring), bring the flybar weights in a bit, and try.

Maybe leave all the stabilisers as they are - they probably balance out nicely with the larger canopy.

Just try all stock (except BEC) and see how you like it.

Regarding the motor, you can 3D like a gazelle on 1800-2000 headspeed.

Nothing wrong with flybar either - some of the craziest 3D smack-down flights I've seen were on flybarred models (like Tareq).

Something tells me that there might be more to this bird that meets the eye.
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Old 01-30-2012, 04:15 AM   #19 (permalink)
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i will try it to just see what it is like, i have moved all the settings t the insane side soo hopefully it comes alive. it is a nice heli i will admit that. it looks vert nice compared to others.
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Old 01-30-2012, 04:46 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Personally I move from 'tame' to 'lively' and fly my helis first, and slowly work my way towards 'insanity'. Works well for me.
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