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mCP X Brushless Mods Blade Micro CPx Brushless Mods and Conversions


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Old 02-24-2012, 09:24 AM   #21 (permalink)
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One last dry day before rain/snow to follow. Chance to try out my new 120SR tail motor/rotor setup for the hp05s even though one of the servos do not have its normal full operating range and waiting for replacement. Anyways, the extra mass and inertia of the 120SR motor and custom-shaped 120SR tail rotor over my 6mm and 7mm motor setups adversely increase respond time for the tiniest tail movement, but the absolute tail hold power is excellent. I've tried a full unmodified 120SR tail rotor at first but the 3-in-1 pre-programmed tail mix gives too much thrust at times and cannot slow down thrust fast enough (i.e. tail kicks right on seemingly random occasions, sort of like what the guy experience with his Plantraco tail rotor). I modified the 120SR tail rotor by first cutting it down by 3mm each side, balance it and custom-bend each blade to have progressive curvature towards the centre, equalizing thrust on each part of each blade and increase the "flap" effect to add a bit of drag. This and the reduced diameter makes the rotor slow down faster than full rotor and therefore respond faster and totally killed the random right kick. Also, it's interesting that when I place the ESC directly over the gyro chips on the 3-in-1 board, the gyro will go haywire and sometimes kicks the tail anywhere from 90 to 360 degrees. I've since moved the ESC further up on the 3-in1 board.

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Old 02-24-2012, 01:33 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Thanks DoubleCH for posting all the info.
I finally got my BL setup. Hawk-RC 10A ESC, HP05S, stock frame with Astro-Design frame brace, 120SR motor on 2mm solid boom, 65mm Plantro prop.

First time spin up, it immediately did the chicken dance, turned out I had the tail rotor turning in the reversed direction. A quick flip of the connector took care of the problem.
It flies great now.

At 100% throttle, head speed of that motor makes you knees feel weak

2mm solid tail boom is probably too weak for that heavy 120SR tail motor. I will replace it with 3mm solid boom, with frame-end filed down to 2.5mm and widen the frame tail mount to fit. Also need to order Hyperion 550mAH batteries.
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Old 02-27-2012, 03:23 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Thanks DoubleCH for all the info. I'm a fellow Mcpx'er and having problems with cogging at startup. Sometimes it starts and sometimes it flutters.

My setup:
Mcpx, 120sr tail motor, 3mm tube at 150mm center to center, Hawk 10a esc, hp05s, Hyperion 550, mini deans, no soldering, and DX8 radio.

The good:
This thing makes my knees shake at 100% throttle and I love the power. My tail has no blowout even on full pitch negative or positive. I use 50% throttle in Stunt 1 and 100% in Stunt 2. I finally was able to do FULL Pyro flips, as I could never do this with my stock or C05m Mcpx because it would bog.

The bad: Most of the time when I start with a little or a lot of throttle, the motor just flutters and does not start.

My troubleshooting and checks:
9 tooth pinion has a little play and nylon gear runs smooth.
I tried all 3 Timings on ESC: low, medium, high. Medium works best for HP05s, High works best for C05m.
I tried all 3 Start Modes.
I tried all 3 Throttle Curves.
I know my HP05s is fine because it works great on XP7a esc.

Can anyone recommend any changes? Or do I need to send the esc back to Benny at Hawk RC?
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Old 02-27-2012, 08:56 PM   #24 (permalink)
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In terms of program setting, have you tried kick-start AND mid-timing? That works best for me on both my 10A/hp05s and 6A/c05m setups. Also, make sure motor plug connection is solid. Even a slight intermittent connection may cog motor at spin-up.
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Old 02-28-2012, 01:16 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleCH View Post
... have you tried kick-start AND mid-timing? That works best for me on both my 10A/hp05s and 6A/c05m setups. Also, make sure motor plug connection is solid. Even a slight intermittent connection may cog motor at spin-up.
Thanks for the quick reply DoubleCH! Yes, I tried that combo, but that's good to hear someone else confirm that setup (kickstart and mid-timing). I'll fiddle with the motor plug. I'm using the Micro 3 pins from Astroid Designs. I'll add a little tin to the plugs to make it tighter and try that.

Cheers!
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Old 02-28-2012, 06:53 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Hey Chris (DoubleCH), nice meeting you today. Too bad it was really windy. Hope those parts work out better for you..tell me what you think of the HP07 motor
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Old 02-28-2012, 07:05 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Nice seeing you again today. I have a quick test on the v2 3-in-1 board. Seems to work fine with my 10A ESC but not the 6A one, which is totally expected. Benny at Hawk-RC specifically said that the current 6A and 10A ESCs (my 6A is older version) are all compatible with the v2 3-in-1 board. Too bad I was planning to use the v2 board with the c05m setup. I'm still working a few things on the v2 board before hooking it up to my hp05s setup for testing. hp07 testing will be a lower priority. I'll be busy for a while.
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Old 02-29-2012, 02:24 AM   #28 (permalink)
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v2 board is in with my hp05s setup. Have had a couple flights but the random 90-degree CW turn comes back. It's most likely because of the crash I had yesterday on my last flight (I noticed the 90-degree turn after the crash so I ended the day). I'm sure the sensitive v2 board gyro settings can only make it worse. It's time to start swapping out parts to troubleshoot.

Other then that, the major difference I notice with the v2 board is that the stock throttle curve is much more linear (less logarithmic). In fact, it's so linear that throttle resolution goes up to 80% from 50% for the v1 board. Also, I need to raise the 2nd throttle curve breakpoint or else the motor will start with pulses like an impact wrench (it won't cog but the pulses are so strong the gyro senses them and pulses the tail motor to counteract). I guess I can try turning on ESC soft-start but I like ESC's kick-start. Anyways, that's not the highest priority.

I also took the chance to try out the Plantraco prop (thanks Ron). Turns out the blade area and profile are very close to my custom-bent 120SR tail prop cut down to 59mm. Full 120SR tail prop makes 37g thrust, my custom-bent 120SR tail prop makes 30g thrust at the same rpm. The improvement is in the reduced rotational inertia and the increased pitch near the center for quicker response. Coincidentally, the Plantraco makes about a couple g more thrust at a lower rpm (because of the higher overall pitch). The advantage of the Plantraco prop over my custom-bent one is its light-weight but then it's easier to break.
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Old 02-29-2012, 04:23 AM   #29 (permalink)
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gah the random 90-degree CW turn is damn nippy!

what size of pinion are u running?
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Old 02-29-2012, 01:34 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Yeah, hate that 90-degree kick. Turns out most of it was due to a cracked rotor hub from previous crash(es). Much fewer random kicks now but still more parts to troubleshoot.

I'm running 9T with the hp05s.
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Old 03-01-2012, 10:22 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Had a quick try of my newest setup with v2 1.3 board yesterday. Same everything else: Hawk-RC 10A ESC/converter, hp05s/14k, 9T, Hyperion 550, 120SR tail motor with custom-profiled cut-down 120SR tail rotor, 2 v1.4 front servos and 1 v1.2 dying (i.e. inconsistent) rear servo.

There're still some randon 90-degree CW kicks but otherwise seems to fly great. Spin-up jitters for a while before going full speed kind of like extra soft-start built into the v2 board. The severity level of the issue seems to vary from time to time. The bird seems to be more sensitive to cyclic inputs but also seems to be more sensitive to vibrations.

Somehow the original audio was messed up so I added sound track although I'm usually not fond of sound tracks especially on test flights.


P.S. Got my 2.3g servos in today and priliminary test indoor is great. Can't wait to test outdoor.
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Old 03-01-2012, 10:42 PM   #32 (permalink)
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My 2.3g servos are in. Read more here.

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Old 03-07-2012, 06:07 PM   #33 (permalink)
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I haven't messed with escs. How do you re-program this esc from low timing mode?
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Old 03-07-2012, 08:20 PM   #34 (permalink)
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It's the same way you program the 6A ESC. I notice Hawk-RC is not listing the 6A any more so the program manual is gone with it. Astroid Designs posts the manual here:

http://astroid-designs.myshopify.com...hless-mcpx-esc
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Old 03-08-2012, 01:58 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Here is the manual.

The 6A ESC/converter can be set up fully plug-and-play for ease of installation or solder signal wire to the MCU output for refined throttle resolution. Even if you're capable of soldering tiny electronics components, consider plug-and-play operation first as it might be sufficient. With full plug-and-play operation, ESC/converter signal input is retrieved from the stock main motor terminal, which without high current load like the stock main motor will have very little throttle change on the upper half throttle stick range. This may sound like a sub-par operation but the fact is that most of the throttle resolution required is between 0-50% (lower half throttle stick range) for smooth spin-up in normal mode and for the 3-in-1 board's built-in soft-start feature (which slowly increase throttle from 0 to 100%). For the upper half throttle stick operation, constant throttle means easier on tail-hold, which is required for the increased main motor power over stock.

If you insist on getting more linear throttle resolution on the upper half throttle stick range, set throttle curves on your transmitter as follows:

Normal curve: 0-15-30-45-60
Idle-up: 60-60-60-60-60
Throttle Hold: 0

Since unmodified stock motor port outputs full throttle signal from 50%-100% throttle channel signal, setting max 60% throttle can still have ESC run motor at full throttle. The above throttle curve changes will only expand the resolvable throttle range from lower half throttle stick range to almost the entire throttle stick range. Beware that because of expanding the range, you may encounter throttle step jumps instead of smooth throttle change. Again, recommendation is to forget about throttle linearity on upper half throttle stick range which is really not necessary and go for 0-100% throttle curve setting. The tail will really appreciate constant throttle on the main motor.

Some reports emerge that suggest m5 and c05m v2 motors (HC-025) randomly drop speed while running full throttle. This is not caused by the motors, but because the ESC is sensitive on the stock motor output signal any noise is treated as lower than 100% throttle. In some case, setting 80% flat idle-up throttle curve may help (remember anything above 60% is treated by the ESC/converter as 100%). A more positive way to fix the problem is to manually set maximum throttle position for the ESC/converter. On normal startup without setting max throttle position, the ESC/converter will use full range of stock motor output signal. However, if you manually set max throttle position to be a bit lower than full stick up, then there'll be a bigger noise margin for the ESC/converter to consider non-100% throttle. Note that the ESC/converter does not memorize the max throttle position setting so you'll have to set it every time on startup, which is easy to do. Furthermore, this random speed drop problem may go away after a period of time as reported. To set max throttle position:

1. Start up Tx as normal: throttle stick lowest, throttle-hold off, normal flight mode
2. Plug in flight battery and wait for blue LED on 3-in-1 board to become solid. ESC/converter will make 5 beeps.
3. Within 3 seconds of solid blue LED, flick throttle stick to upper left position (mode 2). This will make 3-in-1 board puts out full throttle signal but prevent tail motor from starting. As a guide, flick up the throttle stick right about when ESC makes the 2 beeps after the 5 beeps earlier. It doesn't matter if you flick up throttle stick before or after the 2 beeps.
4. Wait for 3 seconds and flick throttle stick back all the way down and that's it. If you wait too long, the ESC/converter will enter program mode. Red LED on the ESC/converter may or may not stay on but it doesn't matter. The key is not to wait too long to enter program mode.

You may want to vary some default ESC/converter parameters. Recommended settings are:

1. brake off
2. highest advance timing
3. soft start
4. reduce power on low voltage
5. throttle curve 3
6. auto lipo detection
7. 3.0V low voltage protection

To enter program mode with Tx, follow instructions to set max throttle position from step 1 to 3 but keep throttle stick up and wait for beeps from ESC to confirm program mode.

The ESC/converter will cycle through the 8 user-configurable paramter menu options and the exit menu option. When you hear the beep pattern corresponding to the menu item you want to enter, flick throttle stick all the way down. This will enter the submenu and the available options for that parameter will be cycled by number of beeps, except menu item 9 which exits program mode right away. When you hear the number of beeps corresponding to the option you want to set for that parameter, flick throttle stick to highest position. A few beeps will confirm the paramter having set. At this time you may click the throttle stick down to finish program mode or wait for the available menu items to be cycled with beeps.

b=short beep
B=long beep

Menu item 1 Beep 2 Beeps 3 Beeps b Brake Off Soft Hard bb Timing Advance Low Mid High bbb Start Mode Instant Soft Super Soft bbbb Low Voltage Cutoff Reduce Power Shut Off B Throttle Curve Linear Inverse Expo Most inverse Expo Bb No. Of Lipo Cells (N/A) Auto 2 3 Bbb LVC Voltage 2.8 3.0 3.2 Bbbb Motor Rotation Forward Reverse BBB Exit Program Mode

The c05m V2 motor can run 8T or 9T. Recommended max pitch travel for 8T is 80%, 9T is 70%. With 8T, you'll get solid pitch response and slightly better flight times. With 9T, you'll get good pitch "pop" because of higher stored energy in the rotating head but consequent pitch pumps may be a bit more mellow.

Installing the motor
To install c05m v2 motor into stock frame, remove all electronics from the stock frame and cut off the two support braces that cage the stock brushed motor. Sand off part of the ridges fore/aft of stock main motor location. Dremel works best. Sand off a small amount at a time. Blow off debris and test fit. Repeat procedures if necessary. Make sure there is more than enough clearance between motor housing which spins while operating and the fore/aft braces in the stock frame. If you're running 8T, no modification is required to the mounting bolt holes and motor housing cup on the stock frame. The c05m v2 motor should fit perfectly inside the "cup". The two front servos have very little clearance to the spinng motor housing. I recommend removing the two lower servo motor housing screws on each servo and put a sticky tape over the back side to prevent shorting out by the metal motor housing. Poke holes through the sticky tape where the servo motor housing screws go through. Install the servo motor housing screws. Install servos to the frame with an extra washer on the lower screws to increase clearance to the motor metal housing. If you have an extra stock frame, the two white washers for the 3-in-1 board work best for the task.

If you're running 9T instead of 8T, you'll need to shift motor forward for the bigger pinion to mesh with the main gear. The easiest way is to have minimal sanding of the c05m v2 motor mount plate. Again, sanding a little at a time and test fit with main gear. Make sure no debris goes into motor and bearing. You can put an electrical tape over the motor housing and the solenoids temporarily for this purpose. You may or may not need to enlarge bolt holes on the frame to fit.

Check gear mesh carefully by turning the main gear slowly for a full rotation and check for clearance with the pinion. The main gear has to have free play from the pinion at ALL times. Before spin-up testing, make sure the wires coming out of the motor are well secured and that they won't move and get caught by the turning motor housing. Take it easy on the first few flights for the gear mesh to wear-in. The gears may sound loud at this time.
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Old 03-08-2012, 02:44 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Thanks [email protected]! Note that this manual is more targeted at v1 board which responds to throttle input between 0-50% and flats from 50-100% using main motor port for signal. With v2 board, the ESC responds to 0-80% throttle input using main motor port for signal and therefore it's better to run normal 0-100% throttle curve and stunt 100% flat (and perhaps stunt1 70% and stunt2 100% if equiped).

EDIT: also note that my recommendation now changes to run kick-start instead of soft-start on both v1 and v2 boards. Stock soft-start on both boards work more than adequate.
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Old 03-08-2012, 02:47 PM   #37 (permalink)
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My most recent flight with my hp05s/9T/10A/550 setup to show the kind of power and punch in comparison to my c05mv2/8T/6A/300 setup.



Or a quick comparison in one clip
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Old 03-08-2012, 05:58 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Been following this thread. Thanks for all of the information.

Looking forward to my HP05s arriving from Hawk. I started with the C05 and wanted some more power. The C05 made it to new NY after leaving Hong Kong in a day but the HP05s is going on 3 days now after having left Hong Kong and there have been no updates
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Old 03-08-2012, 08:13 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Thanx a bunch for the info. I'm looking forward to building an indoor brushless
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Old 03-08-2012, 08:36 PM   #40 (permalink)
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My pleasure.

Depending on indoor space an your piloting skills, hp05s may be a bit too much for indoor. c05m may work better.
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